Dec 18, 2019, 12:31 pm
Last edit by: wyogold
Related discussions in other Flyertalk forums:
AA potentially closing accounts due to credit card churning/churn
How to know if you're locked: (as of 12/22/2019)
- Call in to aadvantage reservations (800-882-8880) If you locked, you'll be forwarded to customer service instead of getting to the automated reservations system
- If you want to stay on the line, ask CSR if your account is locked (you tried to make a reservation but it wouldn't let you). CSR will inform you there's a note on your account and that corporate security will contact you
- Try to make a reservation for a super cheap hotel through useaamiles.com. There are 1000 miles / night hotels in New Delhi, so at worst you'll risk 1K miles. If you're locked, you'll see "Unable to process points. Please call our customer service for assistance."
So far, nobody seems to have gotten unlocked and gotten access to their miles back. Accounts with upcoming travel seem to be the ones that are getting terminated at the highest rate.
AA potentially closing accounts due to credit card churning/churn
How to know if you're locked: (as of 12/22/2019)
- Call in to aadvantage reservations (800-882-8880) If you locked, you'll be forwarded to customer service instead of getting to the automated reservations system
- If you want to stay on the line, ask CSR if your account is locked (you tried to make a reservation but it wouldn't let you). CSR will inform you there's a note on your account and that corporate security will contact you
- Try to make a reservation for a super cheap hotel through useaamiles.com. There are 1000 miles / night hotels in New Delhi, so at worst you'll risk 1K miles. If you're locked, you'll see "Unable to process points. Please call our customer service for assistance."
So far, nobody seems to have gotten unlocked and gotten access to their miles back. Accounts with upcoming travel seem to be the ones that are getting terminated at the highest rate.
AA accounts restricted (Nov/Dec 2019)
Dec 23, 2019, 4:10 pm
#946
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 321
Dec 23, 2019, 4:10 pm
#947
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,605
I had a lot of cards, I was just making a point the AA is looking at accounts and going back years for SUB
You will likely remain fine as you didn't break any rules
Dec 23, 2019, 4:11 pm
#948
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
I would think mailers (or the accounts opened to generate them) are AA's problem. The mailers require actions directly involving AA - opening a new account or using a mailer created by someone who opened a new account to generate a mailer - rather than just getting as many bonuses as possible from Citi without mailers. Using multiple mailers or perhaps even using one mailer by someone with an existing AA account could be a violation of AA's T&Cs
Is AA shutting down anyone as part of this for other reasons?
Dec 23, 2019, 4:17 pm
#949
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
I'm not a lawyer, but I am a JD and I was perusing NW vs. Ginsberg just to see ... this case was about and this struck me:
"Respondent and amici suggest that Wolens is not controlling because frequent flyer programs have fundamentally changed since the time of that decision. We are told that “most miles [are now] earned without consuming airline services” and are “spent without consuming airline services.” Brief for State of California et al. 18 (emphasis deleted). But whether or not this alleged change might have some impact in a future case, it is not implicated here."
You can redeem AA miles for gift cards, hotels, car rentals etc., and miles aren't earned by flying anymore. ADA may not even apply in a case like this.
I thought this excerpt was interesting too:
"We note, finally, that respondent’s claim of ill treatment by Northwest might have been vindicated if he had pursued his breach-of-contract claim after its dismissal by the District Court. Respondent argues that, contrary to the holding of the District Court, the frequent flyer agreement did not actually give Northwest unfettered discretion to terminate his membership in the program, see Brief for Respondent 20–21, and the United States makes a related argument, namely, that even if the agreement gave Northwest complete discretion with respect to a determination regarding abuse of the program, the agreement did not necessarily bar a claim asserting that membership was ended for an ulterior reason, such as an effort to cut costs."
Discovery would be interesting to see on what exactly is going behind the scenes at AA.
None of this stuff is any sort of slam dunk or even probable victory but it seems SCOTUS purposefully left some avenues open in cases like this.
"Respondent and amici suggest that Wolens is not controlling because frequent flyer programs have fundamentally changed since the time of that decision. We are told that “most miles [are now] earned without consuming airline services” and are “spent without consuming airline services.” Brief for State of California et al. 18 (emphasis deleted). But whether or not this alleged change might have some impact in a future case, it is not implicated here."
You can redeem AA miles for gift cards, hotels, car rentals etc., and miles aren't earned by flying anymore. ADA may not even apply in a case like this.
I thought this excerpt was interesting too:
"We note, finally, that respondent’s claim of ill treatment by Northwest might have been vindicated if he had pursued his breach-of-contract claim after its dismissal by the District Court. Respondent argues that, contrary to the holding of the District Court, the frequent flyer agreement did not actually give Northwest unfettered discretion to terminate his membership in the program, see Brief for Respondent 20–21, and the United States makes a related argument, namely, that even if the agreement gave Northwest complete discretion with respect to a determination regarding abuse of the program, the agreement did not necessarily bar a claim asserting that membership was ended for an ulterior reason, such as an effort to cut costs."
Discovery would be interesting to see on what exactly is going behind the scenes at AA.
None of this stuff is any sort of slam dunk or even probable victory but it seems SCOTUS purposefully left some avenues open in cases like this.
Dec 23, 2019, 4:19 pm
#950
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 889
From what I can gather, there are no *specific* reasons being provided.
It's pretty clear what's going on based on who's affected, but to my knowledge AA didn't say to anyone explicitly that they got too many SUBs
It's pretty clear what's going on based on who's affected, but to my knowledge AA didn't say to anyone explicitly that they got too many SUBs
Dec 23, 2019, 4:20 pm
#951
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 159
You'd have to find that AA violated its CoC without using "a state-law claim for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing if it seeks to enlarge the contractual obligations that the parties voluntarily adopt" and probably any other state consumer protection except as explicitly set forth in the contract. AA seems to have drafted its CoC to give itself whatever discretion is needed.
Dec 23, 2019, 4:21 pm
#952
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NYC (LGA, JFK), CT
Programs: Delta Platinum, American Gold, JetBlue Mosaic 4, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Explorist, Hilton Diamond,
Posts: 4,894
I am ignorant on this topic, but among those that
1) Were sent a mailer unprompted and
2) applied for and got a card from that mailer
Did they
1) Get sent another mailer, addressed to them, unprompted, for the same product
2) And were able to again apply for and get a card with a bonus
If so, these applicants should not be shut down under any kind of moral justification, IMO, because AA was pushing offers to their legitimate account
Dec 23, 2019, 4:21 pm
#953
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,752
I'm trying to remember but I think the solicitations I received by email had the 24 month language while the physical ones in the mail didn't.
Dec 23, 2019, 4:22 pm
#954
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
That's what I meant - have they been shutting down people who haven't used mailers.
Dec 23, 2019, 4:26 pm
#955
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 6,433
Yup, it's an uphill battle for sure, but there's an argument to be made here for substantial revenue passengers who didn't do stuff like create fake accounts and are still having their accounts shut down. Again, an uphill battle but there seems to be a cause of action.
Are there "substantial revenue passengers who didn't do stuff like create fake accounts and are still having their accounts shut down"? What in the CoC makes being a substantial revenue passenger relevant?
Dec 23, 2019, 4:27 pm
#956
Join Date: May 2011
Location: NYC (LGA, JFK), CT
Programs: Delta Platinum, American Gold, JetBlue Mosaic 4, Marriott Platinum, Hyatt Explorist, Hilton Diamond,
Posts: 4,894
There are also bank account “mailers,” both physical and emailed, that were sent out. How do those play into this?
Dec 23, 2019, 4:34 pm
#957
Suspended
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: DCA
Programs: UA US CO AA DL FL
Posts: 50,262
You'd have to find that AA violated its CoC without using "a state-law claim for breach of the implied covenant of good faith and fair dealing if it seeks to enlarge the contractual obligations that the parties voluntarily adopt" and probably any other state consumer protection except as explicitly set forth in the contract. AA seems to have drafted its CoC to give itself whatever discretion is needed.
Dec 23, 2019, 4:35 pm
#958
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 544
Are there any reports yet of anyone having been “unlocked”? Are people with blocked, but not cancelled, accounts continuing to be able to fly award tickets in some cases, or are the tickets being cancelled in all cases? Thanks!
Dec 23, 2019, 4:44 pm
#959
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 159
I don't know how many of them are out there, but I'm at least one. As to your second question, I'm not going to bother explaining in depth because a lengthy answer isn't worth my time, and it doesn't seem like anything would convince you anyway. But essentially inducing consumers to use your product via marketing, partner deals, etc. and having your customers rely on those promises by paying credit card annual fees, renting cars with the AA promotion code to earn miles, choosing AA flights over competitors to earn AAdvantage miles, getting taxed on 1099-Rs for miles from bank accounts is all part of fair dealing and good faith. I would like to see an American Airlines lawyer convince a jury of my peers (who love the airline industry) how I abused the program by...signing up for credit cards that they marketed to my immediate (existing in real life) family members via their banking partner (the jury loves banks also!). AA can't just cry "abuse" when there were no explicit T&Cs broken and unilaterally claw back miles after years of a two way relationship. Well they can, and it's actually pre-empted by the ADA when it comes to flying activity.
Dec 23, 2019, 4:50 pm
#960
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 889
Glossed over in this thread as well is that all of this requires discovery and that is breathtakingly expensive. Not likely to find a lawyer to front the costs of this one, so people who want to sue are likely to have to pony up not only legal fees, but the costs of conducting the litigation, including conducting discovery on AA.