Jan 24, 2014, 5:20 pm
Last edit by: mia
The thread was split on September 24, 2014 for technical reasons. This version of the Wikipost is frozen as of that date. Please click HERE to read the newer posts and the most current Wikipost.
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For questions NOT related to the application process - such as experiences using benefits - refer to the AA forum thread on this card: AA Citibank Executive / AAdvantage World Elite MasterCard (Master Thread)
Recommended Application Procedure:
Clear cache and cookies prior to applying or use an incognito or private browsing session to apply. Opening multiple different apps in different windows or tabs or failing to clear cookies/cache has resulted in people receiving a lesser offer for some Citi cards. [B]We do not know, and Citi has not indicated, how long these offers will last. Citi has left other offers alive for over a year beyond the 'apply by' date in the past. These links could be here all year or gone tomorrow. If the application loads, it is good, based on past Citi applications that survived past the landing page expiration, regardless of any posted or advertised 'apply by' date.
MOST CURRENT LINKS:
As of 8/19/14, the 60K+ links are no longer working, and give the following error:
[This link stopped working for a few days in July but seems to be working again] Many thanks to LM225 - Citi AA Executive Personal Mastercard, 100,000 miles after $10,000 spend in 3 months, Admirals Club access for cardholder and family or cardholder and two guests, up to $200 in statement credits. $450 annual fee, not waived. Landing page no longer loads as of 6/24.
The landing page asks for a first and last name but the application loads with or without the landing page. This is a CHIP and Signature card. If you go through the landing page, please use any referral code given to you by an AC rep.
For alternate 100K links, see Post #6084. https://www.citicards.com/cards/acq/...&screenID=3001
Many thanks to lobo411 - Citi AA Executive Personal Mastercard, 75,000 miles after $7500 spend in 3 months, Admirals Club access for cardholder and family or cardholder and two guests, up to $100 in statement credits. $450 annual fee, not waived. No landing page. This is a CHIP and Signature card. Bonus confirmed in posts 136 and 142. Still working: There is also a public version of this offer Citi AA Mastercard, 75,000 miles, Landing page available here. HT Belllaaa.
Many thanks to cerealmarketer - Citi AA Executive Personal Mastercard, 60,000 miles after $5k spend in 3 months, Admirals Club access for cardholder and family or cardholder and two guests. $450 annual fee, not waived. Landing page available here. This is a CHIP and Signature card. Landing page for 60K for $5K, with $100 statement credit and application.
Current 50K public offer: (Be carefull this link is showing as 30k in citi system, use other link for 50k) Landing page for 50K for $5K spending, no statement credit and application.
New 50k offer:
Landing page for New 50K for $5K spending, no statement credit - Application Link WARNING: This landing page contains the following in the Footnotes: "American Airlines AAdvantage® bonus miles are not available if you have had a Citi Executive® / AAdvantage® World EliteTM MasterCard® opened or closed in the past 18 months." But the app link directly following it goes to a totally different app page, which is reported to be working as usual.
EXPEDITED SHIPPING
While reconsideration/application reps do not seem to be aware of this, these cards are expedited and usually arrive 1-2 days after approval.The CSR will not take a request to expedite the card.
Who is eligible for this card? Anyone as long as you can be approved for the minimum $5K credit line, subject to the standard Citi rules of 1 Citi app or card of any kind per 8 days and 2 Citi cards or apps of any kind per 65 days. It is always advisable to wait 65 days from any type of Citi denial before applying for another Citi card. Many have reported getting approved for this card in spite of having several open AA cards over the past year as well as having previously had this card.
Not sure about the 8 and 65 day rules? If your most recent application for any Citi card is less than click here - 8 days ago, you need to wait. Also, if your previous (second-to-last) Citi application is less than click here - 65 days ago, you need to wait. These are not rules published or known by Citi CSRs but rather based on thousands of Citi card applications and datapoints across several threads.
This card can be churned. Recent datapoints concerning multiple Executive cards include posts 917, 1059 and starting at 1365. For in-depth datapoints and advice on churning Citi cards, read and study the extensive wiki posts in the HH thread and the AA Plat/gold thread. Click the plus on the right hand side of the wiki if you do not see the wiki text. Datapoints for bonus points posting on multiple cards include post 2579.
Getting around the $450 annual fee: Some have been able to meet the spending requirement before the first statement posts and then cancel and have the fee refunded after the miles post. Details and datapoints include starting at post 74. T&C state that the card must be cancelled within 30 days of the fee posting to get it refunded. Potential problems with this plans include a very short (1 week or less) first "month" as well as delays in miles posting which have been reported by several FTers here http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...ost-first.html. YMMV. If paying $250-$450 for a year's access to Admirals Clubs and the 60K-100K miles is a deal breaker, this card may not be for you.
Once you cancel the card (within the 37 day window of AF posting) the refund will post on the account between 1-3 business days.
Retention Bonus Offers: User have been offered the following retention bonus offers when calling to cancel the card:
- 5,000 points + $100 credit with $1,500 spend per month for 3 months 5333
- 2 additional club member passes 6862
- 1,000 bonus miles each month for 16 month, min $1k spend/month 6862
Already a member? If you already purchased an AC membership (for example, using the credit from Amex Plat) and apply and are approved for this card, AA will refund you the pro-rated AF from any time left on your membership.
When do miles post? Usually a few days after your statement closes. In some cases your statement will show the correct miles earned but will show 0 miles reported to AA. In this case see this thread.
Please post more experiences about cancelling to avoid the $450 fee
Helpful points from post #3794 and others, especially for those new to Citi:
1) Citi CSRs are clueless, so disregard everything they say that seems to contradict anything you have read on F/T. And take everything else with a big grain of salt. I was told 3 times VERY CLEARLY "You will not got your annual fee refunded" while I was cancelling, but I did get it.
2a) With Citi, if you are approved for a card, and meet the minimum spend requirement, you will get the bonus listed for the offer you applied for. Every time ! Unlike Chase or AMEX, who will send you a card, wait for you to pay the fee and spend, and then say "sorry, you don't qualify for a bonus". If Citi doesn't intend to give you the bonus, they will just deny your app. They won't even do a pull, they will just instantly deny your app. If they send you the card, and you meet the spend on time, you will get the bonus. My attorney insists I add "that could change tomorrow", but from the Big Bang thru today, that has always been true.
2b) Another helpful post discussing timeframe for meeting min spend: 6279
3) Any expectation that Citi will do things that make sense is just plain silly. They won't.
Admiral Club Access: You do not need to be flying AA that particular day of travel. (Ex: you're flying DL on the day of travel...you could still enter the AC lounge, even though you're not on an AA flight that day.) Beware, though, that individual lounges have individual rules (see the link below). Alternate rules usually come w/ Qantas lounges, not AA lounges. Furthermore, AC access "comes with" US Air access (19 locations). An authorized user does not have AC access unless they are with the primary card holder. The authorized user's card will have the "Admiral Club" language omitted from the back of their card.
For reference, an AC lounge list: http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInforma...#admirals-club
For questions and discussions on lounge access: Help Desk: Lounge Access and Lounge Access Rules
$200 Statement Credit on any purchase:
Multiple datapoints within this thread as well as multiple confirmations from CSRs say that the $200 statement credit is for any purchase.
Also, please note that these cards do not include the 10% miles rebate offered by some other Citi AA products.
What about the EQM? AA tracks your miles earned on Executive card(s) and adds 10K Elite Qualifying Miles to your EQM balance once you earn 40,000 miles during a calendar year on Executive card(s). Any number of Executive cards can add up to the 40K, and you cannot earn more than 10K EQM each year. No redeemable miles are added, and this is of no consequence or value unless you will also earn at least 15K additional EQM in a given year by flying and 10K will bump you up to the next status level.
Direct phone number to Citi Fraud Prevention department: +18664705331
Concierge service enrollment (allows for electronic requests). Concierge number is +18778812668
Here are the minimum credit limit required amounts in order to keep an account open (for purposes of new card applications and reconsiderations)
Citi Amex 1k (likely citi gold as well)
Citi Visa signature/world MasterCard 3k
Citi World elite Mastercards (including exec) 5k
Advice to those new to citi American Airlines cards,
If you are just starting out please apply and use the lower level citi AA card for a while before moving on to this thread and card. This will help you in the long run in more ways than one. Most of us here have opened and used lower level AA cards before moving on to this thread and card
Also,
Check out this thread
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/citi-...ost-first.html
-----------------------------------
For questions NOT related to the application process - such as experiences using benefits - refer to the AA forum thread on this card: AA Citibank Executive / AAdvantage World Elite MasterCard (Master Thread)
Recommended Application Procedure:
Clear cache and cookies prior to applying or use an incognito or private browsing session to apply. Opening multiple different apps in different windows or tabs or failing to clear cookies/cache has resulted in people receiving a lesser offer for some Citi cards. [B]We do not know, and Citi has not indicated, how long these offers will last. Citi has left other offers alive for over a year beyond the 'apply by' date in the past. These links could be here all year or gone tomorrow. If the application loads, it is good, based on past Citi applications that survived past the landing page expiration, regardless of any posted or advertised 'apply by' date.
MOST CURRENT LINKS:
As of 8/19/14, the 60K+ links are no longer working, and give the following error:
A system error has caused a delay in processing your application. Please try again later.
[This link stopped working for a few days in July but seems to be working again] Many thanks to LM225 - Citi AA Executive Personal Mastercard, 100,000 miles after $10,000 spend in 3 months, Admirals Club access for cardholder and family or cardholder and two guests, up to $200 in statement credits. $450 annual fee, not waived. Landing page no longer loads as of 6/24.
Current 50K public offer: (Be carefull this link is showing as 30k in citi system, use other link for 50k) Landing page for 50K for $5K spending, no statement credit and application.
New 50k offer:
Landing page for New 50K for $5K spending, no statement credit - Application Link WARNING: This landing page contains the following in the Footnotes: "American Airlines AAdvantage® bonus miles are not available if you have had a Citi Executive® / AAdvantage® World EliteTM MasterCard® opened or closed in the past 18 months." But the app link directly following it goes to a totally different app page, which is reported to be working as usual.
EXPEDITED SHIPPING
While reconsideration/application reps do not seem to be aware of this, these cards are expedited and usually arrive 1-2 days after approval.The CSR will not take a request to expedite the card.
Who is eligible for this card? Anyone as long as you can be approved for the minimum $5K credit line, subject to the standard Citi rules of 1 Citi app or card of any kind per 8 days and 2 Citi cards or apps of any kind per 65 days. It is always advisable to wait 65 days from any type of Citi denial before applying for another Citi card. Many have reported getting approved for this card in spite of having several open AA cards over the past year as well as having previously had this card.
Not sure about the 8 and 65 day rules? If your most recent application for any Citi card is less than click here - 8 days ago, you need to wait. Also, if your previous (second-to-last) Citi application is less than click here - 65 days ago, you need to wait. These are not rules published or known by Citi CSRs but rather based on thousands of Citi card applications and datapoints across several threads.
This card can be churned. Recent datapoints concerning multiple Executive cards include posts 917, 1059 and starting at 1365. For in-depth datapoints and advice on churning Citi cards, read and study the extensive wiki posts in the HH thread and the AA Plat/gold thread. Click the plus on the right hand side of the wiki if you do not see the wiki text. Datapoints for bonus points posting on multiple cards include post 2579.
Getting around the $450 annual fee: Some have been able to meet the spending requirement before the first statement posts and then cancel and have the fee refunded after the miles post. Details and datapoints include starting at post 74. T&C state that the card must be cancelled within 30 days of the fee posting to get it refunded. Potential problems with this plans include a very short (1 week or less) first "month" as well as delays in miles posting which have been reported by several FTers here http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/credi...ost-first.html. YMMV. If paying $250-$450 for a year's access to Admirals Clubs and the 60K-100K miles is a deal breaker, this card may not be for you.
Once you cancel the card (within the 37 day window of AF posting) the refund will post on the account between 1-3 business days.
Retention Bonus Offers: User have been offered the following retention bonus offers when calling to cancel the card:
- 5,000 points + $100 credit with $1,500 spend per month for 3 months 5333
- 2 additional club member passes 6862
- 1,000 bonus miles each month for 16 month, min $1k spend/month 6862
Already a member? If you already purchased an AC membership (for example, using the credit from Amex Plat) and apply and are approved for this card, AA will refund you the pro-rated AF from any time left on your membership.
When do miles post? Usually a few days after your statement closes. In some cases your statement will show the correct miles earned but will show 0 miles reported to AA. In this case see this thread.
Please post more experiences about cancelling to avoid the $450 fee
Helpful points from post #3794 and others, especially for those new to Citi:
1) Citi CSRs are clueless, so disregard everything they say that seems to contradict anything you have read on F/T. And take everything else with a big grain of salt. I was told 3 times VERY CLEARLY "You will not got your annual fee refunded" while I was cancelling, but I did get it.
2a) With Citi, if you are approved for a card, and meet the minimum spend requirement, you will get the bonus listed for the offer you applied for. Every time ! Unlike Chase or AMEX, who will send you a card, wait for you to pay the fee and spend, and then say "sorry, you don't qualify for a bonus". If Citi doesn't intend to give you the bonus, they will just deny your app. They won't even do a pull, they will just instantly deny your app. If they send you the card, and you meet the spend on time, you will get the bonus. My attorney insists I add "that could change tomorrow", but from the Big Bang thru today, that has always been true.
2b) Another helpful post discussing timeframe for meeting min spend: 6279
3) Any expectation that Citi will do things that make sense is just plain silly. They won't.
Citibank Contacts/Resources
- Application status: https://www.accountonline.com/cards/...?screenID=3187
- (800) 695-5171 – Personal Application Status and Reconsideration Line with live rep
- (800) 763-9795 – General Personal Application Inquiries with live rep
- (866) 606-2787 – General Application and Account Questions with live rep
- (888) 201-4523 – Application status
- (866) 606-2961 – Reconsideration Line.
- Twitter : @AskCiti. Very powerful tool.
- Executive Office - useful for getting a more empowered agent for reconsideration purposes: CitiBank Executive Review Department, P.O. Box 6000, Sioux Falls, SD 57117
For reference, an AC lounge list: http://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInforma...#admirals-club
For questions and discussions on lounge access: Help Desk: Lounge Access and Lounge Access Rules
$200 Statement Credit on any purchase:
Multiple datapoints within this thread as well as multiple confirmations from CSRs say that the $200 statement credit is for any purchase.
Also, please note that these cards do not include the 10% miles rebate offered by some other Citi AA products.
What about the EQM? AA tracks your miles earned on Executive card(s) and adds 10K Elite Qualifying Miles to your EQM balance once you earn 40,000 miles during a calendar year on Executive card(s). Any number of Executive cards can add up to the 40K, and you cannot earn more than 10K EQM each year. No redeemable miles are added, and this is of no consequence or value unless you will also earn at least 15K additional EQM in a given year by flying and 10K will bump you up to the next status level.
Direct phone number to Citi Fraud Prevention department: +18664705331
Concierge service enrollment (allows for electronic requests). Concierge number is +18778812668
Here are the minimum credit limit required amounts in order to keep an account open (for purposes of new card applications and reconsiderations)
Citi Amex 1k (likely citi gold as well)
Citi Visa signature/world MasterCard 3k
Citi World elite Mastercards (including exec) 5k
Advice to those new to citi American Airlines cards,
If you are just starting out please apply and use the lower level citi AA card for a while before moving on to this thread and card. This will help you in the long run in more ways than one. Most of us here have opened and used lower level AA cards before moving on to this thread and card
Also,
Check out this thread
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/citi-...ost-first.html
Citi Executive AA MasterCard [October 2013 - September 2014]
Aug 19, 2014, 4:11 pm
#8716
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,269
Well, now that the dust has settled and it looks like all is really dead, here's how it looks for us: we got paid $550 for 1.53 M miles. I'm so happy, I even booked a domestic F flight just to try that out, but only once! The rest will be for Etihad Suites, Cathay F & Qatar Biz into Asia. Whew, spending the miles is gonna be fun!
1) That's impressive. Hard to imagine another opportunity that will match this one. I piled up a little over half what you did, and I regret not having gotten to at least 1 million.
2) 50K is still *great* if you can get it essentially for free by meeting the spend and cancelling.
3) Months ago there was an active debate from people who paid the $450 fee again and again and again in an effort to stay on Citi's good side. Now that the dust has settled, it seems clear those folks threw thousands of dollars of good money after bad.
Aug 19, 2014, 5:04 pm
#8718
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 2,946
Then again, maybe (just maybe) it was those who avoided the annual fees that have attributed to the deal being killed.
Aug 19, 2014, 5:12 pm
#8719
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 29
right. you can get 55k miles for, at worst, $75 in fees pretty easily. thats a lot cheaper than a business class ticket to europe. if those miles have value to you, its still worth the time
Aug 19, 2014, 5:37 pm
#8720
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,269
Seems unlikely (otherwise Citi could simply change the terms by not allowing for a refund of the fee or by saying you had to pay the fee to get the bonus), but regardless, that's not what was being debated. The folks who paid the fee repeatedly argued that they were preserving their relationship with Citi and eventually those who took the miles for free stood a good chance of being blacklisted. Yet Preacher7 got 1.5 million miles + $550 with no adverse consequences, and I just read a post in another thread by a guy who has 14 HHonors cards. Citi just doesn't seem to be the blacklisting type.
Last edited by LWT3; Aug 19, 2014 at 5:45 pm
Aug 19, 2014, 7:26 pm
#8721
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: fort worth, texas
Posts: 946
They'll blacklist you, but it's for some REAL stupid stuff (like my wife who has been on a decade-long 80% blacklist from them for the sin of them closing one of her cards when they phased out the Professional card-- idiots see it as CLOSED BY ISSUER somehow, which can mean risk if the circumstances for closure weren't recorded).
But otherwise, think of Citi as a dimwitted Golden Retriever. You could theoretically repeatedly smack it in the face, and the big dolt would forget it and keep bringing you new credit cards and laying them at your feet waiting for you to throw the next application for it to go after!
But otherwise, think of Citi as a dimwitted Golden Retriever. You could theoretically repeatedly smack it in the face, and the big dolt would forget it and keep bringing you new credit cards and laying them at your feet waiting for you to throw the next application for it to go after!
Aug 19, 2014, 7:35 pm
#8722
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: fort worth, texas
Posts: 946
expiration of 50k?
So, I'm assuming that nobody has actually seen a public URL for the 50k offer with a definitive expiration date?
That is, the 50k could also go bye-bye anytime?
I ask since obviously nobody has been focused on the 50k offer, and for those trying to manage application strategy if there was a public 50k offer you've seen that had an "apply by X", that could possibly help some of us that might prefer to wait a bit.
That is, the 50k could also go bye-bye anytime?
I ask since obviously nobody has been focused on the 50k offer, and for those trying to manage application strategy if there was a public 50k offer you've seen that had an "apply by X", that could possibly help some of us that might prefer to wait a bit.
Aug 20, 2014, 4:13 pm
#8723
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: BOS .. but soon SFO
Programs: UA PLAT, TK GLD, Hilton Diamond, IC PLAT, SPG GLD, Marriott GLD
Posts: 1,528
so my fiasco with the 10k EQMs not posting is coming to an end.
I called AAdvantage Customer relations (817-786-3778 option 6) and they ran a query of all my Citi EXEC spend from Jan 2014 to present and came up with $30k
I began to look into my account and noticed that in April 2014 I had a line item that reads
CITI EXPEDITED MILES 110,058
vs
CITI EXEC WLD ELITE PURCH.MI.
Which is what AA queries. So I explained this to the lady and said "this is when the CITI and AA accounts weren't syncing correctly and I guess CITI just sent everything over as one lump sum, which is why it doesn't show when you run the query"
I'm still on hold, but I fully expect to get the 10k EQM ... and hopefully this will help anyone else with the same issue
I called AAdvantage Customer relations (817-786-3778 option 6) and they ran a query of all my Citi EXEC spend from Jan 2014 to present and came up with $30k
I began to look into my account and noticed that in April 2014 I had a line item that reads
CITI EXPEDITED MILES 110,058
vs
CITI EXEC WLD ELITE PURCH.MI.
Which is what AA queries. So I explained this to the lady and said "this is when the CITI and AA accounts weren't syncing correctly and I guess CITI just sent everything over as one lump sum, which is why it doesn't show when you run the query"
I'm still on hold, but I fully expect to get the 10k EQM ... and hopefully this will help anyone else with the same issue
Aug 20, 2014, 5:16 pm
#8725
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: fort worth, texas
Posts: 946
My guess is Citibank got higher than planned applications for the 100, 75, and 60 cards with the partial statement credit. Thus, they have ratcheted down to 50 with no dollar bonus. If this gets tons of aps, then maybe they go lower than 50. If not, maybe the higher ones come back. Simply trying to find an equilibrium point.
Aug 20, 2014, 6:09 pm
#8726
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: Marriott Platinum, Hilton Diamond, IHG Platinum
Posts: 3,710
I'm probably not the first to notice this (unless it's only happening to me), but if you close your card, get AF refunded and move that credit balance to another card, it counts AGAINST the total spend in terms of miles posted. For example, you close card #1, get $450 back, transfer it to card #2, on which you spent $1000 that month, you will only get miles for $550.
So that's potentially 450 miles missing per card. Times that by 10 (if you churned 10 cards) and you're short of 4500 miles. Still a relatively small # that I'll probably just let it go (don't want the extra attention on the whole thing), but in the future I'm going to opt for the refund check instead.
So that's potentially 450 miles missing per card. Times that by 10 (if you churned 10 cards) and you're short of 4500 miles. Still a relatively small # that I'll probably just let it go (don't want the extra attention on the whole thing), but in the future I'm going to opt for the refund check instead.
Aug 20, 2014, 6:42 pm
#8727
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: PVD/BOS
Posts: 879
[Currently 60k] 100k miles Citi Executive AAdvantage [Read wiki before posting]
Is anyone that applied with the zombie 60k link on the final day still waiting for a response from citi?
I've called a couple times and they keep telling me it's processing and I have to call back (not declined) and they can't seem to bypass the system to approve it.
I've called a couple times and they keep telling me it's processing and I have to call back (not declined) and they can't seem to bypass the system to approve it.
Aug 20, 2014, 6:47 pm
#8728
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: SFO
Programs: OZ *G; HH Diamond;
Posts: 1,644
I'm probably not the first to notice this (unless it's only happening to me), but if you close your card, get AF refunded and move that credit balance to another card, it counts AGAINST the total spend in terms of miles posted. For example, you close card #1, get $450 back, transfer it to card #2, on which you spent $1000 that month, you will only get miles for $550.
So that's potentially 450 miles missing per card. Times that by 10 (if you churned 10 cards) and you're short of 4500 miles. Still a relatively small # that I'll probably just let it go (don't want the extra attention on the whole thing), but in the future I'm going to opt for the refund check instead.
So that's potentially 450 miles missing per card. Times that by 10 (if you churned 10 cards) and you're short of 4500 miles. Still a relatively small # that I'll probably just let it go (don't want the extra attention on the whole thing), but in the future I'm going to opt for the refund check instead.
Aug 20, 2014, 7:24 pm
#8729
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 16
I'm probably not the first to notice this (unless it's only happening to me), but if you close your card, get AF refunded and move that credit balance to another card, it counts AGAINST the total spend in terms of miles posted. For example, you close card #1, get $450 back, transfer it to card #2, on which you spent $1000 that month, you will only get miles for $550.
So that's potentially 450 miles missing per card. Times that by 10 (if you churned 10 cards) and you're short of 4500 miles. Still a relatively small # that I'll probably just let it go (don't want the extra attention on the whole thing), but in the future I'm going to opt for the refund check instead.
So that's potentially 450 miles missing per card. Times that by 10 (if you churned 10 cards) and you're short of 4500 miles. Still a relatively small # that I'll probably just let it go (don't want the extra attention on the whole thing), but in the future I'm going to opt for the refund check instead.
If I had the $450 AF refunded and moved the credit balance to a new card, do I need to minimum spend $10,450 on the new card to qualify for the 100,000 miles?
Aug 20, 2014, 7:57 pm
#8730
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: fort worth, texas
Posts: 946
No, you only would need to spend $10,000. The credits you get from moving a credit balance or the $100/$200 Citi gives you per card do not up what you have to spend.
The only thing that counts against you are returns.