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-   -   Points plus cash - technical problem (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/choice-choice-privileges/1843756-points-plus-cash-technical-problem.html)

Donna49 May 21, 2017 10:59 am

Points plus cash - technical problem
 
Tried to book different hotels on different days, using points and cash, but the option never became available on the website, as it has in the past.

Just called, and the agent says there is a known technical issue with points and cash, and they are working on it. But for now, that rate is not available.

sdsearch May 21, 2017 6:33 pm

Keep in mind it's not really a rate. All points plus cash is at Choice is you buying some of the points at the time of the reservation. It's rarely a good value, because buying points is rarely a good value.

If you ever cancel a points + cash reservation, you don't get any cash back, instead you get the points you bought back.

Ie, there's never a better points plus cash rate or a worse one. There may be an illusion of that, but the cash portion is always the same for the same total points amount. It has nothing to do with the price of the hotel. That's why you can even find some cases where the cash part of points + cash is actually more than the pure cash value of the hotel, because points + cash is nothing more than buying some of the points with the cash (at a poor rate).

ChoiceHotels May 25, 2017 7:45 am


Originally Posted by Donna49 (Post 28340904)
Tried to book different hotels on different days, using points and cash, but the option never became available on the website, as it has in the past.

Just called, and the agent says there is a known technical issue with points and cash, and they are working on it. But for now, that rate is not available.


You are correct. Due to technical issues, we have temporarily suspended the Points Plus Cash functionality on our website. We are working to get this resolved, and appreciate your patience!

road2elysium May 25, 2017 10:11 am


Originally Posted by sdsearch (Post 28342106)
Keep in mind it's not really a rate. All points plus cash is at Choice is you buying some of the points at the time of the reservation. It's rarely a good value, because buying points is rarely a good value.

If you ever cancel a points + cash reservation, you don't get any cash back, instead you get the points you bought back.

Ie, there's never a better points plus cash rate or a worse one. There may be an illusion of that, but the cash portion is always the same for the same total points amount. It has nothing to do with the price of the hotel. That's why you can even find some cases where the cash part of points + cash is actually more than the pure cash value of the hotel, because points + cash is nothing more than buying some of the points with the cash (at a poor rate).

Pretty sure I read this exact word-for-word post from you already.

1. Other hotel loyalty programs (IHG) operate in the same fashion.
2. You said "In some cases points+cash > cash rates"
But that also means in some other cases, points+cash < cash rates.
3. Having an option to buy points at better than the typical purchase price rate is a good thing.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

nsx May 25, 2017 12:28 pm

I wonder if the "technical issue" was discovery that someone was scamming points. Worse for us would be management's desire to close the loophole whereby we can buy an unlimited number of points at a reasonable price.

I suspect it's the latter, and that someone in management read a blog post about Points and Cash, belatedly discovering the loophole we have known about for years. That's exactly how Alaska miles for cheap Etihad First Class tickets ended.

GUWonder May 25, 2017 3:44 pm


Originally Posted by nsx (Post 28359028)
I wonder if the "technical issue" was discovery that someone was scamming points. Worse for us would be management's desire to close the loophole whereby we can buy an unlimited number of points at a reasonable price.

I suspect it's the latter, and that someone in management read a blog post about Points and Cash, belatedly discovering the loophole we have known about for years. That's exactly how Alaska miles for cheap Etihad First Class tickets ended.

Scamming points how? By paying the price that Choice asked for and accepted?

Choice management had capped the number of points that could be purchased this way and then had lifted the cap. That's an indication of a loophole? I don't buy that. I'd be more inclined to bet that they've realized they can get more revenue from point sales than they've been getting; and/or that their points.com relationship is more in the picture. That, and/or they're still showing that they've got their technology management issues.

nsx May 25, 2017 4:42 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 28359743)
Scamming points how? By paying the price that Choice asked for and accepted?

Yes! From the corporate point of view there is no such thing as a poorly designed promotion. There are only demon customers who ruthlessly exploit the promotion and inflict massive losses on the faultless company. See how that works? :D

GUWonder May 25, 2017 4:52 pm


Originally Posted by nsx (Post 28359936)
Yes! From the corporate point of view there is no such thing as a poorly designed promotion. There are only demon customers who ruthlessly exploit the promotion and inflict massive losses on the faultless company. See how that works? :D

CP'a points+cash wasn't a designed promotion. And points+cash stays don't count toward Choice Privileges promotions.

Massive losses for Choice from points+cash stays? That would surprise me. Losses for and complaints from Points.com over "the loophole"-come-"designed promotion"? That would be less surprising.

sdsearch May 25, 2017 8:23 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 28359965)
CP'a points+cash wasn't a designed promotion. And points+cash stays don't count toward Choice Privileges promotions.

Massive losses for Choice from points+cash stays? That would surprise me. Losses for and complaints from Points.com over "the loophole"-come-"designed promotion"? That would be less surprising.

I doesn't sound like you understand what the loophole is.

As I understand it, there's a limit on buying points outright.

But there's no limit on making points + cash reservations, then cancelling those reservations, and then getting all the points back (including the ones you bought with the cash portion). Ie, anyone can buy points at the points + cash rate ad infinitum if they just make and cancel, make and cancel, make and cancel, make and cancel, make and cencel reservations endlessly endlessly endlessly.

No one does this AFAIK at IHG because it's not that great a value at IHG. If it is as great a value as people in these thread claim, this loophole could be a big liability for Choice if they never intended to just plain "sell" points at this rate.

GUWonder May 25, 2017 11:35 pm


Originally Posted by sdsearch (Post 28360546)
I doesn't sound like you understand what the loophole is.

As I understand it, there's a limit on buying points outright.

But there's no limit on making points + cash reservations, then cancelling those reservations, and then getting all the points back (including the ones you bought with the cash portion). Ie, anyone can buy points at the points + cash rate ad infinitum if they just make and cancel, make and cancel, make and cancel, make and cancel, make and cencel reservations endlessly endlessly endlessly.

No one does this AFAIK at IHG because it's not that great a value at IHG. If it is as great a value as people in these thread claim, this loophole could be a big liability for Choice if they never intended to just plain "sell" points at this rate.

The current CP terms include this language:

"A maximum of 250,000 points can be purchased in a calendar year through Points Plus Cash.".

It's been pretty much that same way since before 2016. And I'd call that a limit on playing CP's points+cash game.

iggyray Jun 5, 2017 11:04 am

2 weeks into the issue and nothing happening
 
Called Choice, twitted Choice - no reply and no assistance.

How much time does it take to fix the damn thing?

road2elysium Jun 8, 2017 9:51 am

Update: As of 6/8/2017, still not seeing C&P availability on the website.

lwildernorva Jun 8, 2017 2:31 pm

Given the issues with the rollout of the "new" Choice website two years ago and the amount of time it took to fix them, I wouldn't hold your breath that this functionality will return in the next three to six (or even twelve) months.

lougord99 Jun 8, 2017 5:26 pm


Originally Posted by lwildernorva (Post 28419901)
Given the issues with the rollout of the "new" Choice website two years ago and the amount of time it took to fix them, I wouldn't hold your breath that this functionality will return in the next three to six (or even twelve) months.

I agree. Especially since this is probably an extremely low priority.

GUWonder Jun 9, 2017 5:23 am


Originally Posted by lwildernorva (Post 28419901)
Given the issues with the rollout of the "new" Choice website two years ago and the amount of time it took to fix them, I wouldn't hold your breath that this functionality will return in the next three to six (or even twelve) months.

That supposes this is nothing but a website issue.

When the website hasn't been working for some sort of things with regard to CP point use, the call center reps could still work things out even when the functionality was down on the website. That doesn't seem to be the case this time.

It seems that the functionality of using CP points for points+cash was deliberately pulled and that this isn't the function of just some programming error limited to the website.

nsx Jun 9, 2017 9:22 am


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 28421913)
It seems that the functionality of using CP points for points+cash was deliberately pulled

Bingo. "Technical" could mean, for example, a legal technicality.

GUWonder Jun 9, 2017 10:02 am


Originally Posted by nsx (Post 28422706)
Bingo. "Technical" could mean, for example, a legal technicality.

Let's just say that if I were the owner/operator of points.com and had a legally-memorialized, exclusive relationship of sorts with Choice over managing the sales of Choice points and were to notice that the way people are buying Choice points has dropped off because Choice has started to do a run-around to more cheaply sell points via the points+cash method, then what would I do. I may throw my legal weight around to try to get the slice of the pie that I had wanted and thought I would be getting before P+C was as much in the picture with this program.

While some might wonder why this would hit Choice and perhaps not some other programs, keep in mind that the legal sophistication and negotiating position strength is not equal amongst all loyalty programs and that points.com isn't used by all the players under the exact same contract terms.

sdsearch Jun 9, 2017 12:23 pm


Originally Posted by nsx (Post 28422706)
Bingo. "Technical" could mean, for example, a legal technicality.

In the legal area, I could see for example that they discovered that they were incorrectly handling this "hidden" points purchase in their accounting, and that they have to fix the accounting issues before they can resume "selling" points in this way.

Or it could be that it was an imprecise explanation. Ie, it could be a technical problem with the "back engine" which drives both the website and whatever technique phone agents used to book cash + points reservations for you, despite claims above that it was a technical problem with the website itself.

Keep in mind that AFAIK there's only one other hotel program which does cash + points the same way (as a "hidden" way of buying points), and they developed that system a decade or two ago. So Choice may not have had much to go by when they implemented it, and may not have done it all correctly, but only discovered that recently.

GUWonder Jun 9, 2017 1:31 pm


Originally Posted by sdsearch (Post 28423479)
In the legal area, I could see for example that they discovered that they were incorrectly handling this "hidden" points purchase in their accounting, and that they have to fix the accounting issues before they can resume "selling" points in this way.

I'm pretty sure that isn't it.

GUWonder Jun 15, 2017 3:25 am


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 28423742)
I'm pretty sure that isn't it.

Anyone starting to suspect that there may be other award changes to come into play in conjunction with the points+cash being halted?

abcx Jun 18, 2017 10:09 pm

Ugh, I was hoping to use this to top my account to book some rooms near Rocky Mountain NP next week. If anyone has Choice points to spare, please PM me.

road2elysium Jun 21, 2017 11:07 am

Still looks like points + cash is out of commission.

Did a search this morning.

road2elysium Jul 2, 2017 11:39 am


Originally Posted by road2elysium (Post 28470306)
Still looks like points + cash is out of commission.

Did a search this morning.

Update: I still see points + cash availability as down.

GUWonder Jul 25, 2017 10:32 am

It's still history, as in I used to see it earlier this year but not since May.

nsx Jul 25, 2017 10:55 am


Dadofsix Aug 30, 2017 3:24 pm


Originally Posted by Donna49 (Post 28340904)
Tried to book different hotels on different days, using points and cash, but the option never became available on the website, as it has in the past.

Just called, and the agent says there is a known technical issue with points and cash, and they are working on it. But for now, that rate is not available.

Okay, time for me to vent a little bit. Why Choice thinks there's no need to communicate the current status of their Points + Cash program to their members is beyond me. It's been gone for over 3 months now with no proactive explanation.

Anyway, a few more recent things are "bugging" me too -- all of these are points related:
1) I can no longer see the points price requirement for a particular hotel when I pull up a hotel overview. This used to be there, I think for all properties, with the "new" website. I'm not sure if this is another website defect or what else it could be.
2) Issue #1 caused me to buy 2k points to top off my account for an upcoming redemption, only to realize now that I actually needed 4k points (originally my stay date was slightly outside of my booking window, so I was basing the points price on an earlier date but the same day of the week -- OR possibly they just snuck in a devaluation on this property, which I guess wouldn't surprise me either). Choice currently has a 40% bonus points buy promo going on, had I known this earlier I might've purchased more points since there is a 5k minimum to get the 40% bonus.
3) When my daughter (non-Elite) was purchasing points the other day to top off her account for an upcoming redemption, for some reason the rate was $13.40 instead of $11.00 per 1,000. For me (Platinum Elite), it was still $11 per 1,000 and I'm quite certain this was the price for me before I became an Elite member. Now with the 40% bonus promo going on, somehow it's back to $11 per 1,000 for non-Elites (even before hitting the 40% bonus at the 5k points level). We were both a bit puzzled by this, thankfully she held off the other day and didn't purchase at that time and saved a few bucks. I'm not sure if this is another website defect or what else it could be.

Anyone else notice issue #1 or #3 above? Just curious. Thanks in advance.

sdsearch Aug 31, 2017 1:23 pm


Originally Posted by Dadofsix (Post 28757132)
1) I can no longer see the points price requirement for a particular hotel when I pull up a hotel overview. This used to be there, I think for all properties, with the "new" website. I'm not sure if this is another website defect or what else it could be.

I saw this chart as recently as two months ago, and then I didn't check again until just now, and indeed it's gone at hotels which definitely showed it before.

But not long before it vanished, I noticed a hotel that was charging a (slightly) different number of points for the current season than the chart showed (something like 8k vs 10k or 10k vs 12k). So maybe they got complaints about that kind of stuff and removed it for that reason?

satori Sep 8, 2017 6:21 am

1. Points Plus Cash are no longer mentioned in Choice Terms & Conditions.

2. There was a rate increase in the reward price for a majority of hotels I have been following over the past month. The rate increase happened some time between August 24 and Sept 4.

3. https://www.choicehotels.ca/ Choice Hotels Canada website shows seasonal reward rates when you check the home page of any specific hotel. Changes to reward rates on this site in the past two weeks confirmed a major shift upward for reward rate changes.

10 of 16 hotels I have been following for past month for my travels increased reward rates. None decreased.

I booked several hotel reward night reservations on August 20 for hotels that are now 50% more points for the same dates.

Dadofsix Sep 8, 2017 4:06 pm


Originally Posted by satori (Post 28791811)
3. https://www.choicehotels.ca/ Choice Hotels Canada website shows seasonal reward rates when you check the home page of any specific hotel. Changes to reward rates on this site in the past two weeks confirmed a major shift upward for reward rate changes.

10 of 16 hotels I have been following for past month for my travels increased reward rates. None decreased.

I booked several hotel reward night reservations on August 20 for hotels that are now 50% more points for the same dates.

Thanks for sharing. Nice find (albeit not good news for most of us).

Dadofsix Sep 8, 2017 5:00 pm


Originally Posted by Dadofsix (Post 28757132)
3) When my daughter (non-Elite) was purchasing points the other day to top off her account for an upcoming redemption, for some reason the rate was $13.40 instead of $11.00 per 1,000. For me (Platinum Elite), it was still $11 per 1,000 and I'm quite certain this was the price for me before I became an Elite member. Now with the 40% bonus promo going on, somehow it's back to $11 per 1,000 for non-Elites (even before hitting the 40% bonus at the 5k points level). We were both a bit puzzled by this, thankfully she held off the other day and didn't purchase at that time and saved a few bucks. I'm not sure if this is another website defect or what else it could be.

I was probably mistaken earlier, I think it was $14.30 (not $13.40) for 1,000 points - so an even worse rate. Because now that the 40% bonus promo is over, that's what the Buy Points points.com interface is stating now for her as a non-Elite. However, the rate per 1,000 actually decreases quite a bit at the 5k point level (it's actually CHEAPER for her to buy 5,000 points than to buy 4,000 points right now) - probably yet another system glitch. If she were to buy 40k-50k points, it's quoting a rate of just under $10 per 1,000 so not exactly much to write home about....especially with the apparent unannounced devaluation recently.


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