Trump administration bans China passenger planes effective June 16
#61
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,218
This story, in Chinese, from a few days ago says the flight is awaiting approval, but that US888/889 are United's flights under the five-ones policy and that they are scheduled to start June 15, so not operating now in any event.
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#62
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 246
Well, CAAC just released updated policy, which allows foreign carriers fly to China under current '5-1 rule' from June 8th, it even comes with a reward system:
- If certain route didn't bring any positive COVID-19 case to China for 3 consecutive weeks (flights), the carrier will be award another weekly flight, 2 weekly max.
- If single flight bring 5~10 COVID-19 cases into China, the certain route will be banned for 1 week.
- If single flight bring more than 10 COVID-19 cases to China, the certain route will be banned for 4 weeks.
I am literally speechless. Do you think US carriers or UA will take this deal? Thoughts?
- If certain route didn't bring any positive COVID-19 case to China for 3 consecutive weeks (flights), the carrier will be award another weekly flight, 2 weekly max.
- If single flight bring 5~10 COVID-19 cases into China, the certain route will be banned for 1 week.
- If single flight bring more than 10 COVID-19 cases to China, the certain route will be banned for 4 weeks.
I am literally speechless. Do you think US carriers or UA will take this deal? Thoughts?
Also because the border is closed, virtually everyone on these China-bound flights will be Chinese. They are essentially punishing airlines for bringing their own citizens home. It is pretty incredible how Chinese citizens have been hung out to dry by their own country.
This is a classic Chinese Government move. Create a completely unreasonable law and stand behind “rule of law.” This gives them an easy excuse to quickly shut down flights again.
Also, as has been pointed out elsewhere, it is a stupid policy because one flight a week to Holland or Korea is quite different than one flight a week to the U.S., Russia, or Canada.
#63
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 3,097
"The reward system is absurd, and leaves travelers in a state of flux."
As a warning to anyone planning travel this summer, it's not only China using a reward/punishment approach. When 12 passengers on a Qatar flight to Greece tested positive a few days ago, Greece suspended all Qatar flights until June 15, upending the travel plans of anyone with a booking in the next two weeks.
https://neoskosmos.com/en/166946/ath...k-australians/
As a warning to anyone planning travel this summer, it's not only China using a reward/punishment approach. When 12 passengers on a Qatar flight to Greece tested positive a few days ago, Greece suspended all Qatar flights until June 15, upending the travel plans of anyone with a booking in the next two weeks.
https://neoskosmos.com/en/166946/ath...k-australians/
#64
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YYZ
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Posts: 1,154
I don't understand why they're even being given until June 16th. US should ban Chinese airlines from flying "any more routes than US carriers are currently flying", effective immediately. Make any lifting of the ban contingent on US carriers being able to fly as many additional flights as the Chinese carriers flew, in excess of US carriers, since implementation of the "5 1" rule, until equality is reached, at which point, flights are capped at a 1:1 ratio.
#65
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC 75k, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 1,154
"The reward system is absurd, and leaves travelers in a state of flux."
As a warning to anyone planning travel this summer, it's not only China using a reward/punishment approach. When 12 passengers on a Qatar flight to Greece tested positive a few days ago, Greece suspended all Qatar flights until June 15, upending the travel plans of anyone with a booking in the next two weeks.
https://neoskosmos.com/en/166946/ath...k-australians/
As a warning to anyone planning travel this summer, it's not only China using a reward/punishment approach. When 12 passengers on a Qatar flight to Greece tested positive a few days ago, Greece suspended all Qatar flights until June 15, upending the travel plans of anyone with a booking in the next two weeks.
https://neoskosmos.com/en/166946/ath...k-australians/
#67
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 101
Many of you are missing the point: I think China doesn't actually want international flights to resume, and are only keeping the flights for the sake of saying "we have not banned international flights." This whole policy/negotiation mess is all for optics.
There are thousands of people in quarantine hotels in Shanghai, Beijing, etc. The Five Ones policy was put in place because the logistics of processing and holding these people got too complicated and costly. I don't see how this would have changed recently.
And given the relative number of cases in China and elsewhere, there's even less reason for China to let foreign passengers in, even if they're Chinese citizens. In the case of the US specifically, there's very little goodwill in China at this point after how much Trump tried to pin all the blame on China and bragged about his travel ban. I'm not sure if there's anyone left inside China pushing for flights to resume.
Looking at the big picture: the vast majority of the population are not going to benefit from these flights even if they do resume. There are severe travel restrictions in place in both directions (although most traffic will probably flow in one direction only). Given how high the number of cases are in the US, I'm guessing they will be in place for a long time. Thus there's very little value in resuming these flights.
Domestic travel has mostly resumed inside China. So Chinese airlines are not losing much even if their one flight a week overseas got canned.
There are thousands of people in quarantine hotels in Shanghai, Beijing, etc. The Five Ones policy was put in place because the logistics of processing and holding these people got too complicated and costly. I don't see how this would have changed recently.
And given the relative number of cases in China and elsewhere, there's even less reason for China to let foreign passengers in, even if they're Chinese citizens. In the case of the US specifically, there's very little goodwill in China at this point after how much Trump tried to pin all the blame on China and bragged about his travel ban. I'm not sure if there's anyone left inside China pushing for flights to resume.
Looking at the big picture: the vast majority of the population are not going to benefit from these flights even if they do resume. There are severe travel restrictions in place in both directions (although most traffic will probably flow in one direction only). Given how high the number of cases are in the US, I'm guessing they will be in place for a long time. Thus there's very little value in resuming these flights.
Domestic travel has mostly resumed inside China. So Chinese airlines are not losing much even if their one flight a week overseas got canned.
#68
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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Many of you are missing the point: I think China doesn't actually want international flights to resume, and are only keeping the flights for the sake of saying "we have not banned international flights." This whole policy/negotiation mess is all for optics.
There are thousands of people in quarantine hotels in Shanghai, Beijing, etc. The Five Ones policy was put in place because the logistics of processing and holding these people got too complicated and costly. I don't see how this would have changed recently.
And given the relative number of cases in China and elsewhere, there's even less reason for China to let foreign passengers in, even if they're Chinese citizens. In the case of the US specifically, there's very little goodwill in China at this point after how much Trump tried to pin all the blame on China and bragged about his travel ban. I'm not sure if there's anyone left inside China pushing for flights to resume.
Looking at the big picture: the vast majority of the population are not going to benefit from these flights even if they do resume. There are severe travel restrictions in place in both directions (although most traffic will probably flow in one direction only). Given how high the number of cases are in the US, I'm guessing they will be in place for a long time. Thus there's very little value in resuming these flights.
Domestic travel has mostly resumed inside China. So Chinese airlines are not losing much even if their one flight a week overseas got canned.
There are thousands of people in quarantine hotels in Shanghai, Beijing, etc. The Five Ones policy was put in place because the logistics of processing and holding these people got too complicated and costly. I don't see how this would have changed recently.
And given the relative number of cases in China and elsewhere, there's even less reason for China to let foreign passengers in, even if they're Chinese citizens. In the case of the US specifically, there's very little goodwill in China at this point after how much Trump tried to pin all the blame on China and bragged about his travel ban. I'm not sure if there's anyone left inside China pushing for flights to resume.
Looking at the big picture: the vast majority of the population are not going to benefit from these flights even if they do resume. There are severe travel restrictions in place in both directions (although most traffic will probably flow in one direction only). Given how high the number of cases are in the US, I'm guessing they will be in place for a long time. Thus there's very little value in resuming these flights.
Domestic travel has mostly resumed inside China. So Chinese airlines are not losing much even if their one flight a week overseas got canned.
However, you missed the point that the current dispute US DOT vs CAAC is about equal rights under 1980 and 1999 US-China Air Agreements.
If China is so scared about the virus from US, they can suspend air travel between China and US.
It's fundamentally unfair that China forces US to have few flights due to this arbitrary 5-1 policy.
#69
Join Date: Jul 2011
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Except those airlines would only be carrying Chinese citizens at this time, which means that they don't want their own citizens to be able to go back to their own country? So be it. But just make sure all of the Chinese citizens currently in the US who want to go back to China but can't know where the blame lies for their inability to return.
#70
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: YYZ
Programs: AC 75k, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 1,154
Except those airlines would only be carrying Chinese citizens at this time, which means that they don't want their own citizens to be able to go back to their own country? So be it. But just make sure all of the Chinese citizens currently in the US who want to go back to China but can't know where the blame lies for their inability to return.
#71
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 122
China is playing unfair game again.
Seven Chinese carriers can fly to US. That’s 7 weekly flights. Not to mention deceptive “charter flights”.
Only 2-3 US carriers fly to China. For July to October only two airlines DL UA plan to. That’s 2 weekly flights.
I urge DOT to consider this and reject CAAC bogus proposal.
Seven Chinese carriers can fly to US. That’s 7 weekly flights. Not to mention deceptive “charter flights”.
Only 2-3 US carriers fly to China. For July to October only two airlines DL UA plan to. That’s 2 weekly flights.
I urge DOT to consider this and reject CAAC bogus proposal.
#72
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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Except those airlines would only be carrying Chinese citizens at this time, which means that they don't want their own citizens to be able to go back to their own country? So be it. But just make sure all of the Chinese citizens currently in the US who want to go back to China but can't know where the blame lies for their inability to return.
https://www.weibo.com/1821797847/J53...d1591383441186
Well, CAAC just released updated policy, which allows foreign carriers fly to China under current '5-1 rule' from June 8th, it even comes with a reward system:
- If certain route didn't bring any positive COVID-19 case to China for 3 consecutive weeks (flights), the carrier will be award another weekly flight, 2 weekly max.
- If single flight bring 5~10 COVID-19 cases into China, the certain route will be banned for 1 week.
- If single flight bring more than 10 COVID-19 cases to China, the certain route will be banned for 4 weeks.
I am literally speechless. Do you think US carriers or UA will take this deal? Thoughts?
- If certain route didn't bring any positive COVID-19 case to China for 3 consecutive weeks (flights), the carrier will be award another weekly flight, 2 weekly max.
- If single flight bring 5~10 COVID-19 cases into China, the certain route will be banned for 1 week.
- If single flight bring more than 10 COVID-19 cases to China, the certain route will be banned for 4 weeks.
I am literally speechless. Do you think US carriers or UA will take this deal? Thoughts?
This causes all kinds of issues.
(1) Why should the passengers next week be penalized for passengers testing last week?
(2) Can we even trust testing in China? What about false positives?
(3) What if US retaliates by arbitrarily suspending a flight from a Chinese carrier?
It's just a messy nightmare for both airlines and passengers. Whoever in CAAC came up with this idea is an idiot.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/05/us-s...-carriers.html
US DOT plans to allow 2 Chinese carriers to fly to US (see link above). Since UA and DL fly to China, per 5-1 policy, China can only do 2
According to DOT, seven Chinese carriers (CA/HU/MU/CZ/MF/3U/JD) submitted application for flights.
Sorry, no. You can't do 7 flights because US has only 2.
Let Chinese government taste their own medicine.
#74
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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No worries. This flight has no chance of running.
If I take a guess, UA's one weekly flight will be SFO-PVG with a stop in ICN to change crew.
The 787 or 777W will stay at PVG for 3 hours then fly back to ICN.
Fares will be expensive, but not that expensive in the screen shot.
If I take a guess, UA's one weekly flight will be SFO-PVG with a stop in ICN to change crew.
The 787 or 777W will stay at PVG for 3 hours then fly back to ICN.
Fares will be expensive, but not that expensive in the screen shot.
#75
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 101
Your concerns are irrelevant from the Chinese perspective: If they can't trust anything then what's the point of testing at all. Unless you're going to claim that China is going to secretly sabotage only the tests from the American carriers, then I think this rule is fair.
If you have doubts about something as basic as this, you probably shouldn't have flights to China anyway. There's a lot of things you have to trust when the planes are on the ground. For example, are Chinese security checks adequate? Is the disease really under control in China?
In the US-China case, with the prices of tickets going through the roof, the marginal cost for passengers and airlines to have prior testing is not high at all. If you're flying at this time, you *really* want to fly. I'm not 100% sure but I believe China is already requiring passengers to register via wechat before they depart with relevant health information.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/05/us-s...-carriers.html
US DOT plans to allow 2 Chinese carriers to fly to US (see link above). Since UA and DL fly to China, per 5-1 policy, China can only do 2
According to DOT, seven Chinese carriers (CA/HU/MU/CZ/MF/3U/JD) submitted application for flights.
Sorry, no. You can't do 7 flights because US has only 2.
Let Chinese government taste their own medicine.
US DOT plans to allow 2 Chinese carriers to fly to US (see link above). Since UA and DL fly to China, per 5-1 policy, China can only do 2
According to DOT, seven Chinese carriers (CA/HU/MU/CZ/MF/3U/JD) submitted application for flights.
Sorry, no. You can't do 7 flights because US has only 2.
Let Chinese government taste their own medicine.