Beware of false tour operators for Great Wall
 

I strongly disadvice you to take any guided tour to the Great Wall from the tour operators that operate in the Forbiden City.

When visitng the Forbiden City, we were approached by a guy who called himself "Bill"(that was suposed to be his english name though he was a chinese). He offered us a tour to the Great Wall plus Ming Tombs. Because we anyway wanted to see it, we arranged it.

On a day of tour his van came to pick us at the hotel. Beside driver there was a woman who introduced herself as our guide. A first supprise(when we were already on the motorway) was when she told us that we wouldn't be visiting Ming Tombs. Apparently, because of the clousure on the motorway we would be forced to go via side roads and this would cause a delay and blah blah... We protested for a moment but we got along with it. Anyway it was said to us, this is merrely a park.

Before we got to the Wall, we unexpectedlly stoped at a "factory" in one village. She said we should go inside although it was not on the program. We didn't wanted to, because we heard many stories of people being forced to buy something in such "factories". She then even got angry and threated that she will leave us there in the middle of nowhere alone if we do not go inside. This was even more suspicios to us and when she realized that she won't succeed, we continued driving to the Wall.

When arriving at the Wall we entered the cable car and went atop. She didn't go with us but promissed to pick us at the parking some hundred metters before the entrance, a few hours later. When we arrived at the top she called us via mobile and said she wouldn't be back and she would leave us there. This was obviously a revenge for not visiting that bloody "factory". When we protested she began to blackmail us, saying she would come back to pick us but we would have to visit that "factory" and also go to a kind of tea degustation. There was time to do this but not obviously for the Ming Tombs being originaly on the program. And we of course heard the stories about degustations which costed the participants lurked into it, even up to 50 or 100 euros. So we smoothly denied it.

Luckilly, there were taxis near that parking which drove us to the nearest city when we were able to take the bus back to Beijing.

So under any condition, do not take anyone offering you a tour to the Great Wall in the Forbidden City or around.

I applaud you for sticking by your guns wrt the "factory" bit. Can you provide any more info about your tour operator? (I would be happy to do some follow up.)

It's likely it was a unlicensed operator, the way they approached you is similar to illegal taxis in airports. Even if you go with a licensed operator (especially one catered towards Chinese citizens), you may end up in one of these "factories" where they will push to sell stuff at over-inflated prices, although they would not strand you if you don't buy anything.

You dont have to buy something in the factorys. The Guide will get some fuel for the car or some small money if they bring you there, even if you dont buy anything.
I know some ex-guides personally, so its quite common for them to do so. Even if they dont want to, it could be a company rule of the tour operator and they will get trouble if they cant force you to go in there.

That`s a good point. Knowing crossing the threshold is sufficient to fulfill the "tour" operators obligation. Just walk in take a glance. "Bu Yao". Walk out. Easier than getting into a big arguement.

In the first place, just avoid those tours from random tours.

Is having to visit a "factory" while on tour that big a deal?
 

My wife and I just returned from China (United Vacations/Majestic tour) and on both the TerraCotta Warrior and Great Wall parts we "had" to visit a silk factory, fake warrior factory and a jade factory. Oh, and lunches on two days were at tourist traps where you had to walk through all sorts of stuff to your table. I never saw it as that big a deal and realized right off that the kickbacks to the tour operators were subsidizing some of the cost of the trip.

We were never forced to buy anything, nor was there even much pressure. A bit of deception perhaps (claiming that these were "safe" "government controlled" places to buy things where you wouldn't get ripped off). I did buy an over-priced set of Terra Cotta warriors (260 yuan, seen elsewhere for about half that) and a chess set (800 yuan), plus a jade bracelet for my daughter (480 yuan). Were the places informative? Not really. But not a big deal.

On the other hand, our visit to the "government" Tea House outside the Temple of Heaven was very worthwhile. Yes, they wanted to sell us tea, but our hostess gave a great presentation, we got to sample some great tea, and the 250 yuan we spent on likely-overpriced tea was well worth the price of admission.

To be completely honest, many visitors are going to feel far more comfortable paying inflated prices to these "factories" than they would bargaining on the streets. We did a fair amount of that, and it was both fun and tiring... tiring because when you tell someone "no" and walk away, they think you're still bargaining. What's the hand signal for telling someone that you're actually not interested? :D

In our case we didn't do any "random" tours, but if someone was in Shanghai or Beijing without a scheduled itinerary, how do they know a reputable operator from a bad one? Serious question since I'm likely to head back to China on my own in the future, and there might be some things that would be more convenient as part of a day tour trip than on my own. Thanks!

Yeah, it's a big deal. You were forced to sacrifice your hard earned vacation time to go places in which you had little or no interest. Furthermore, I'm willing to bet that you would have eaten far better if you played a role in restaurant selection.

Having been on a few Chinese tours before, (tours for Chinese tourists) all I can say is if it was easier to tour some parts of China independently, I would do it. In the cities it's usually no problem but it's not like you can just rent a car and drive off to a park as a short-term tourist/visitor in China. The tours are sometimes actually cheaper than paying for your own transportation and fees, depending on where you go. The free "lunch" is universally bad, too. I've been taken to "factories", "farms", "pharmacies" and other places which I had no interest in but I've yet to buy anything other than a package of utterly vile North Korean cigarettes which I regretted after smoking one. I felt like my lungs were collapsing as I smoked it... At first they confused me but then I realised what was going on and didn't really feel like wasting my time/money. I just hate that they interrupt your nap on a 3 hour bus ride so that you can get overcharged by people selling stuff you don't need.

Oh I'm sure we could have eaten a lot better if we'd had some help from someone local, but we didn't, and yet we thoroughly enjoyed our trip. Whether it's a "factory" tour or whatever, good times are where you find them, and they provided an opportunity to spend time with the others on our tour.

Had we paid a much-higher price for our tour I would have felt very differently, I'm sure. It was $879/person for three nights in Beijing, two nights in Xi'an and three night in Shanghai. Hotel accomodations were excellent in all locations. Food varied from very good to so-so, and it's likely my wife and I picked up an extremely-nasty 6-hour bug/food poisoning from one of the buffets in Xi'an. Would I have paid more to avoid getting sick? You bet! Haven't felt that bad maybe ever. But nobody else in our group got sick so who knows.

If I see the prices here, I can say that all of you pay a lot to much :p
Chess set for 800RMB? Serious? WOW, the seller could stay at home for a week after selling it to you ^

YOU HAVE TO BARGAIN IN CHINA. And not about 10%, you have to bargain about 90% of the first price.

I'm a terrible shopper! But it was fun.
 

I knew this was coming. :D

Trust me, the sellers were able to stay home a month or two with what they got from others. (And the 800 Yuan was a bit less than half of the "fixed" factory price it was listed for).

It would be helpful to bring in someone who knew how to get the best prices and could demonstrate, or simply have a cheat sheet of target prices. Perhaps that's something someone here could point to? And would an appropriate tactic in a store with marked prices be to ask if it's tagged incorrectly because that seems like way too high a price?

And do I dare mention I paid $58 for a fake iPhone??? Just had to have it when I saw the "Designed in Cupertino, Made in the USA" on the back. All iPhones are made in China. Except this one. :D
I recognized too late that my style of "bargaining" doesn't work well in China. I picked up a pair of dress shirts for 70 yuan each (original asking price was 400). I felt that was a reasonable price and stuck to it. They wanted to play... pick a low price, they counter, pick slightly higher, counter again, etc. That simply didn't make sense to them. It was pretty funny; I was on my way out after a couple minutes of "negotiation" when they settled at "my" price (which, as we know, was still a lot higher than what I likely could have gotten it for).

Next time I'll have more fun, and so will they. My apologies for whatever cultural damage I may have caused. ;)

Darn right it was an iPhone5! Nothing but the best for this guy. :D

Start with a unrealistic low price, so maybe 30RMB for the chest set. It can happen that they say "go away" and thats it. But most time they will start barging. You need time for this, could take about 10 minutes to get it for a realistic price.
The sellers have a fixed salary, so they can sell it to you for 100RMB if they like you, or they could sell it for 800RMB if they dont like you. They will get the same salary. So be friendly to them.
Because there are people like you, they have a easy game and foreigners will always get a to high price :)
And dont look at the brand. Everything you got in this factorys are copies, so he price will come from the quality, not from the brand.

All iPhones are made in China. Except this one


None are made in China....assembled in China.
US customs requires COO on foreign made products.
So maybe they are made in USA and designed in Cupertino California.
Did you get an iPhone 5? Saw them for sale on Taobao.:p

I actually complete most fake market purchases in less than 30 seconds, in part because the novelty of practicing my negotiation skills in Chinese wore off many years ago. The main trick is knowing what stuff actually costs... going in the evening also helps because the merchant doesn't have to bother with restocking (i.e. less actual work for them).

Anyway, let's take my Paul Smith polo shirts, the foundation of my summer wardrobe, for example. I've been buying them for 5 years and know that I can reliably pick them up for y30 (y25 is also possible, but those extra y5 can lead to me spending more than my precious 30 seconds, which I dislike). Anyway, so I say "30" and pretty much close my ears; works every time.... actually I paid y40 once a few months ago during one of those crack down phases, which lead to all but two vendors in Yaxiu taking a break from Paul Smith; having 10 stalls selling the exact same stuff is a beautiful thing for consumers.