Using Credit Cards in China - The Great CC Rip Off (dynamic currency conversion)
Mar 15, 13, 5:10 pm
#961
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Getting your (for this time, innocent) issuer bank to pay for it - justifiable for the first time if you didn't know they were going to dispute, but not justifiable for second and subsequent attempts.
Obviously Chase thinks cost to dispute > just paying you off.
I thought we weren't here for handouts, we were here to get at the thieving Chinese banks. What's this, getting your share of TARP back?
If you knew this was going to happen in advance, you shouldn't use Chase going forward. Use card from a bank you know will actually dispute, even if it takes some trial and error to find out which.
Obviously Chase thinks cost to dispute > just paying you off.
I thought we weren't here for handouts, we were here to get at the thieving Chinese banks. What's this, getting your share of TARP back?
If you knew this was going to happen in advance, you shouldn't use Chase going forward. Use card from a bank you know will actually dispute, even if it takes some trial and error to find out which.
(How many txns are you disputing, sir? As I will only do this once every 2 weeks of I have to)
Mar 15, 13, 9:34 pm
#962
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
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Is there no alternative to Visa/MC? From my last two trips, those places who take Visa/MC also take AE...
Mar 16, 13, 11:37 pm
#963
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I don't travel to PRC a lot, and even if I do I normally void my DCCed slips so the theiving bank never get to see its booty (even if it means waiting 30 minutes to do so).
Is there no alternative to Visa/MC? From my last two trips, those places who take Visa/MC also take AE...
Is there no alternative to Visa/MC? From my last two trips, those places who take Visa/MC also take AE...
I also void the slips before they become a problem, but, that's not always very easy either.
For overseas spending I like Canada/US best as DCC chance there is close to none.
And, they don't charge for CC use like OZ.
Other times I have no choice with my Canadian employer sending me there for business as they can save Chinese visa fees due to my HRP.
For OZ passport holder, I can see why too considering how expensive the passports are (then again, when I went to OZ, not much was cheap)
Mar 17, 13, 9:18 pm
#964
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 114
I am not sure if it's ethical or not ethical but if Chase is willing to eat the charges, that's not my issue. but i highly doubt they are "eating" the charges. Yes, i have an amex, but i prefer to use my Chase card to earn double miles on travel/hotel as my charge from St Regis will be hotel stay charges. I will make sure i emphasize that i can ONLY be charged in RMB before settling the bill. wish me luck, i will report my finding.
Mar 18, 13, 1:33 am
#965
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I was DCCed at lunch today, and my biz partner wouldn't let me fight it.
The restaurant was Piro (we go there often, but usually pay with Chinese cards).
Acquiring bank = Merchants
Slip type = carbon
RMB total = 185
USD total = $31.10
Effective FX rate = 5.95
Market FX rate = 6.22
Differential = 4.3%
The restaurant was Piro (we go there often, but usually pay with Chinese cards).
Acquiring bank = Merchants
Slip type = carbon
RMB total = 185
USD total = $31.10
Effective FX rate = 5.95
Market FX rate = 6.22
Differential = 4.3%
Mar 18, 13, 10:33 am
#966
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That's weird; every time I've been to a restaurant that uses Merchants as an acquirer the terminal pops up a currency choice prompt. Now sometimes I've had to use a bit of social engineering to get the right currency chosen (sometimes the employee tells me that management requires them to select DCC and in such cases I raise a fuss until my slip is voided and redone in RMB and on future visits I hold out my chipped card and pretend it's Chip+PIN, holding onto the terminal until I've chosen RMB) but it's nothing weird like the others- you get a very obvious "1 for RMB, 2 for other currency".
Mar 18, 13, 5:22 pm
#967
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I was DCCed at lunch today, and my biz partner wouldn't let me fight it.
The restaurant was Piro (we go there often, but usually pay with Chinese cards).
Acquiring bank = Merchants
Slip type = carbon
RMB total = 185
USD total = $31.10
Effective FX rate = 5.95
Market FX rate = 6.22
Differential = 4.3%
The restaurant was Piro (we go there often, but usually pay with Chinese cards).
Acquiring bank = Merchants
Slip type = carbon
RMB total = 185
USD total = $31.10
Effective FX rate = 5.95
Market FX rate = 6.22
Differential = 4.3%
If you were reimbursed I wouldn't worry about it too much (unless, of corse, you were reimbursed in RMB)
Mar 18, 13, 9:18 pm
#968
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 102
It took me nine weeks to run a dispute through my HK bank with a non-compliant DCC Macau merchant. Suppose you're in US and the time is halved. I don't see how Chase resolved a dispute in 2-3 days.
Knowingly running transactions and resolving each of them by dispute with foreknowledge that your bank will lose out is ethically murky. Well you can say they can FR your card if they like but still...
St. Regis - oh I told them. In Mandarin. Maybe they only understand English. Or serve non-Chinese better (but isn't DCC here to scam foreigners???)
Or maybe it's just me in the Decanter bar...you might get better luck by staying there and paying at the reception.
Although I doubt they have a different merchant bank at reception vs the bar.
I did manage to get out of DCC at my own SPG hotel (Sheraton Futian)
Make sure you actually check out - they DCC the deposits too (again, without your written agreement as required by Visa VIOR)
Knowingly running transactions and resolving each of them by dispute with foreknowledge that your bank will lose out is ethically murky. Well you can say they can FR your card if they like but still...
St. Regis - oh I told them. In Mandarin. Maybe they only understand English. Or serve non-Chinese better (but isn't DCC here to scam foreigners???)
Or maybe it's just me in the Decanter bar...you might get better luck by staying there and paying at the reception.
Although I doubt they have a different merchant bank at reception vs the bar.
I did manage to get out of DCC at my own SPG hotel (Sheraton Futian)
Make sure you actually check out - they DCC the deposits too (again, without your written agreement as required by Visa VIOR)
Mar 19, 13, 12:40 am
#969
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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B206 Safari/7534.48.3)
angelboi2001 - good...I didn't stay there, and my Sheraton futian also had dcc but was also able to avoid. Perhaps spg makes sure at least the front desks stay DCC free, even tho they can't protect f&b walk-in customers like me (wrt Shenzhen st Regis)
angelboi2001 - good...I didn't stay there, and my Sheraton futian also had dcc but was also able to avoid. Perhaps spg makes sure at least the front desks stay DCC free, even tho they can't protect f&b walk-in customers like me (wrt Shenzhen st Regis)
Mar 19, 13, 12:57 am
#970
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 40,689
That having been said, whenever you find yourself at a business lunch/dinner, and DCC happens, you should be prepared to take the hit. Visa has magically engineered this system that forces us to either pay up or loose face. And, the major Chinese banks seem to like it.
Mar 28, 13, 5:52 am
#971
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 40,689
I'm currently at Cantina Agave, which is trying to DCC me. I'm in the mood for a bit of a battle this evening, so I'm sticking by my guns:
1) zhao shang bank: 3888 3565
2) they claim that foreign cards ALWAYS get billed in FX, and there is NO workaround
3) their surcharge is only around 3%, so not the end of the world
But, this is proof that DCC is starting to run wild.
....
Fast forward 10 minutes:
-Zhao Shang Bank is actually part of HSBC
-resolution: reduce my tab by 3.x %, rebill me in USD, credit the restaurant with the difference... as happy as I am to recover the single dollar, this attitude proves that the banks honestly don't care about us
1) zhao shang bank: 3888 3565
2) they claim that foreign cards ALWAYS get billed in FX, and there is NO workaround
3) their surcharge is only around 3%, so not the end of the world
But, this is proof that DCC is starting to run wild.
....
Fast forward 10 minutes:
-Zhao Shang Bank is actually part of HSBC
-resolution: reduce my tab by 3.x %, rebill me in USD, credit the restaurant with the difference... as happy as I am to recover the single dollar, this attitude proves that the banks honestly don't care about us
Mar 28, 13, 6:16 am
#972
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
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Posts: 19,208
I'm currently at Cantina Agave, which is trying to DCC me. I'm in the mood for a bit of a battle this evening, so I'm sticking by my guns:
1) zhao shang bank: 3888 3565
2) they claim that foreign cards ALWAYS get billed in FX, and there is NO workaround
3) their surcharge is only around 3%, so not the end of the world
But, this is proof that DCC is starting to run wild.
....
Fast forward 10 minutes:
-Zhao Shang Bank is actually part of HSBC
-resolution: reduce my tab by 3.x %, rebill me in USD, credit the restaurant with the difference... as happy as I am to recover the single dollar, this attitude proves that the banks honestly don't care about us
1) zhao shang bank: 3888 3565
2) they claim that foreign cards ALWAYS get billed in FX, and there is NO workaround
3) their surcharge is only around 3%, so not the end of the world
But, this is proof that DCC is starting to run wild.
....
Fast forward 10 minutes:
-Zhao Shang Bank is actually part of HSBC
-resolution: reduce my tab by 3.x %, rebill me in USD, credit the restaurant with the difference... as happy as I am to recover the single dollar, this attitude proves that the banks honestly don't care about us
Haha. We got two competing overseas spending card offers this Easter:
HSBC: $1.23/mile HSBC extra 12.5X ($1.23/mile) on overseas spending to 15 Apr 2013
BEA: $0.89/mile 9X points for overseas restaurant and hotels spending over Easter
But unfortunately, to earn miles, both offers require use of Visa/MC...
And some brave souls are taking the cards up North http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...hp?id=9809&p=5
Oh good luck...and popkanmai
Mar 31, 13, 6:57 am
#973
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: SIN
Programs: Hard to keep one
Posts: 155
Just got DCC-ed at an eatery at Strathfield, NSW.
Basically the proprietor refused to give me the option. I saw it come up and said No but she ignored and hit the yes, and proceeded to give me the crap about how the rate is correct. I told her it is not and it is much higher.
She then just gave the slip to me and "Sign, if you did not want to pay this rate, then you shouldn't have used an overseas credit card". Saying this to a customer and foreign visitor really leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
To avoid a scene I scribble and just left. I have written complaint letters to Mastercard, the merchant bank and my issuer bank. But I have a gut feel it will not be helpful.
Basically the proprietor refused to give me the option. I saw it come up and said No but she ignored and hit the yes, and proceeded to give me the crap about how the rate is correct. I told her it is not and it is much higher.
She then just gave the slip to me and "Sign, if you did not want to pay this rate, then you shouldn't have used an overseas credit card". Saying this to a customer and foreign visitor really leaves a bad taste in the mouth.
To avoid a scene I scribble and just left. I have written complaint letters to Mastercard, the merchant bank and my issuer bank. But I have a gut feel it will not be helpful.
Mar 31, 13, 9:09 am
#974
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
Join Date: May 2009
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EngOnAPlane
Chargeback on code 4846 (page A-14 or PDF page 419 http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchan..._CB_Manual.pdf) cardholder states he was not given opportunity to choose the desired currency (add "through willful disregard of cardholder instructions by merchant"), ask your card issuer for a dispute form. If they don't give you a dispute form then ask your bank regulator to force your issuer to do it.
As for the proprietress's attitude, I'll do my damndest to make the issuer follow through and squeeze the pips out of her (i.e. not settle out of issuer's pocket). Australian merchants can impose surcharges and require minimum spending with notice and consent, but nowhere in the RBA override of MC's rules did RBA void a foreign cardholder's right to be billed in AUD.
Chargeback on code 4846 (page A-14 or PDF page 419 http://www.mastercard.com/us/merchan..._CB_Manual.pdf) cardholder states he was not given opportunity to choose the desired currency (add "through willful disregard of cardholder instructions by merchant"), ask your card issuer for a dispute form. If they don't give you a dispute form then ask your bank regulator to force your issuer to do it.
As for the proprietress's attitude, I'll do my damndest to make the issuer follow through and squeeze the pips out of her (i.e. not settle out of issuer's pocket). Australian merchants can impose surcharges and require minimum spending with notice and consent, but nowhere in the RBA override of MC's rules did RBA void a foreign cardholder's right to be billed in AUD.
Last edited by percysmith; Mar 31, 13 at 9:27 am
Mar 31, 13, 9:11 am
#975
Ambassador, Hong Kong and Macau
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I've just been in a Boots chemist shop in Hua Hin where the cashier presented a small slip showing a HKD offered rate. I have a HK$1.23/mile offer for overseas currency spending (not to mention the rate offered was 1.7% over Visa rate after fees). A non-DCC slip was duly presented and happily signed for.
I have to settle the Sheraton bill when I get back to hotel but I expect the DCC override is a similarly easy walkover. I do not expect to have to stand over the cashier for 30 minutes like its Shenzhen cousin (though the reason I do this is night is to make sure I can do just that).
I have to settle the Sheraton bill when I get back to hotel but I expect the DCC override is a similarly easy walkover. I do not expect to have to stand over the cashier for 30 minutes like its Shenzhen cousin (though the reason I do this is night is to make sure I can do just that).
Last edited by percysmith; Mar 31, 13 at 9:37 am
