moondog

Yes, both the Hilton and Meridien (same building/owner) tried to DCC me on a recent trip in those parts, but the workaround was as simple as, "why don't you try running that again in your own currency?"

lcpteck

They didn't seem to understand that as well. But I should get an Amex just in case heh. Lucky most of my stays are pre-paid.

percysmith

Doing my annual christmas Shenzhen trip. I am rather enjoying this annual trip - get away from all the overpriced food and crowding in Hong Kong on Christmas Eve.

My +1 is using the trip to extend SPG Gold by paying with a World MasterCard. Fortunately the hotel we stay in in Shenzhen (Sheraton Futian) didn't DCC her last year http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-44.html#652

There's a HK$1.23/mile HSBC offer we're quite keen to maximize http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...ow.php?id=9147. Unlike previous HSBC overseas promos, this one excludes Unionpay cards, and since HSBC HK does not issue AE, this promo only applies to DCC-exposed Visa and MC cards. The promo is quite explicit that DCC spending is excluded.

My +1 is already using an HSBC Premier World MC for the hotel. I was keen on maxing the offer on dining and everything else.

Dinner at Little Sheep hot pot surprised me - they don't take anything but Unionpay or cash! Didn't expect this from a Yum! subsidiary. Neither did 江南味道, a sizeable Shenzhen chain where we had lunch the next day. Even Carrefour doesn't take Visa in all counters.

But the real drama was at the drinks afterwards. I have difficulty finding quality hotel bars like HK and Shanghai in Shenzhen. Last year's Ritz Carlton was a dingy bar at the back of reception which was not impressive.

This year I heard about the new St Regis and headed there without much research after dinner. Longish taxi ride.

When I asked for the hotel bar I was directed to the Decanter. There was an entry fee and I stuck out my HSBC HK Visa Plat without much thinking except remembering to mention "Please charge RMB". The Decanter lobby level receptionist charged my card without much comment, I didn't know what terminal it was in advance, but it was a detachable terminal so I figured voiding a slip wasn't that difficult.

Lo and behold, got a BoC DCC slip. it had the Mark[X] Transaction Currency wording, RMB460 or HKD529.27 (DCC exchange rate of 1.294, a 1.7% premium over the 1.272 rate HSBC would have charged me).

"Tick RMB and it's RMB" said the lobby receptionist. I don't trust him one bit - there was no prompt for currency selection on his terminal, he was already processing another guest's slip.

One thing I have a lot of is CMCC call credit after paying RMB100/half year for keeping my PRC number alive; almost by kneejerk reaction I was on the line with HSBC HK, which confirmed "yes sir, we confirm 529 dollars and 27 cents have been held by your Shenzhen merchant". I turned on the lobby receptionist, scribbled this is the amount already charged, defaced the merchant slip with a big X and demanded the slip be voided.

"We have to go to the upstairs receptionist to get the slip voided" said the lobby receptionist.

Thinking the upstairs receptionist may have the terminal to void the DCC slip, I and +1 followed him to 100/F.

Here's where the fun starts. the 100/F receptionist was able to key in my transaction number so slip details were shown own the card terminal, but when she hit void, a dreaded prompt shows up "请输入主管密码".

I looked in horror - a admin password for voiding a slip?! How fxcked does BoC need to make their terminals?

The 100/F receptionist for her part pulled all the stops to void the slip. Berating staff, calling up accountants off duty, calling the BoC merchant centre. She also brought out champagne and lucky draw tix for the night. I really can't fault her for effort to serve the customer - I didn't pull any DYKWIAs or egg her on.

The 100/F receptionist confirmed she was aware the BoC terminal at the hotel gave no option to select RMB; but the 主管密码 wasn't there til recently.

Eventually after more than 30 minutes a manager of some sort showed up and voided my slip. Bless my +1, a FTer in her own right, she stood quietly all the time behind me trying to get a net connection or playing Bejewelled, resisting all veiled attempts by the 100/F receptionist to get me to move on. At one point the receptionist asked is the DCC scalp really that much, for which my +1 answered "he's not concerned about the 20 dollars he loses off the exchange rate, he's mad about the 390 miles your BoC terminal just ripped off him".

I did take care to insist on retrieving the customer copy of both charge and void slips for posting here.



I didn't attempt any of the 查询 procedures to bypass the DCC http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/16080882-post219.html, I paid by Unionpay for a lot less miles (but drawing on my massive RMB cash float I have left from my last boys trip) and hurried in, profusely thanking the 100/F receptionist and manager on the way.

I can't fault the hotel on the whole given the 100/F receptionist's valiant attempts to void the slip, but hotel management should be berated for the following two omissions:
1. If the DCC terminals cannot charge RMB, the lobby receptionist should refuse to process the Visa transaction after I requested RMB only
2. If there was a password to void transactions, the duty manager should have it. It should not take the bar receptionist 30 minutes to locate him.

After the drama getting in, the bar wasn't at all impressive. The champagne the receptionist brought out was the welcome drink included in my RMB460 entry fee. We sat upstairs at first but the view was obsfucated by smog and had a min charge of RMB2,000 so we had to go back downstairs. Even after we moved, downstairs was loud and every drink was by the bottle (we tried ordering cocktails, a bottle on top of the welcome drink champagne was a bit too much) so we moved to St Regis Bar at 96/F. We had a couple of hours to drink quietly but still the staff were unable to give me a receipt for the SPG points earned. My and my +1's search for a good Shenzhen hotel bar continues.


Now I'm worried - in order to lock in their DCC loot, DCC scam banks and merchants are increasingly eliminating the Void button, or making it a bxtch to use. It happened at Harrods http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/u-k-i...-currency.html and it's happening in PRC too.

Sigh, using a Visa/MC in the PRC is getting increasingly riskier no matter the promo miles earn rate. Local merchants are more and more reluctant to take 国际卡, and tourist-oriented establishments like hotels are very likely to have DCC - it's only a matter of how much pain you have to experience to void slips (if possible at all).

The checkout at Sheraton Futian is another interesting DCC story, will write a separate post.

percysmith

Okay, just checked out of the Sheraton Futian.

Checkout was very efficient "did you use the minibar?" "is all your luggage with you"

Then came the bill. "Are you charging it to the deposit card? (referring to my +1's HSBC World MC). We both nodded - this is a requirement of the SPG WMC promo.

"Then you don't have to sign anything. We'll just post the deposit"

Huh? This was not like last year http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-44.html#652. I asked if my +1 can sign the charges, explaining it's a requirement of the HSBC promo.

"If you insist, but the deposit will stay on your card. The charge will add to it and take up more credit." That's fine by us, the HSBC promo is limited in scope so we don't care if our HSBC limits get held.

My +1 handed over the card again, asking for RMB charge.

The cashier produced two slips. The second was the charge slip, which was DCC free and stated BoC was the acquirer, but printed on Sheraton paper.

The first slip was the release of the deposit and there was a detail that caught us by surprise - DCC was applied at 1.309 (a 2.88% scalp to the Visa rate after fee).

As you can see on the form it was fully voided.



But I'm sure this is a new scam. +1 didn't remember signing anything about DCC on check in, so there's no written approval for DCC to be applied had we not requested to sign for the room charges again on checkout per page 574 of the Visa International Operating Rules http://usa.visa.com/download/merchan...n.pdf#page=610. Pretty sure it's non compliant, but we don't have the paperwork to make it a slam dunk DCC dispute.

BoC needs to be gang fxcked up its arxe with barbed wire. It seems to be determined to break every VIOR rule with impunity. Since its a closed system, it owes Visa more than Visa owes it, therefore it's treating all 国际卡holders as trash.

jamar

Carrefour doesn't take Visa down south? Here in the Shanghai region, I've yet to see one that doesn't. And no DCC either.

But in general, wow, I never expected BoC to get worse than HSBC on the DCC front. I'm really glad I don't bank with them any more than I have to.

percysmith

The cashier didn't say 国际卡 wasn't accepted, but only in the first five cashiers of about 17. I dunno if they were marked as such, but my purchase was too small to have me insist on undoing and redoing the transaction.

There's nothing as individuals we can do - I don't feel confident to use Visa/MC anymore in the PRC now. Have to use more Unionpay or where accepted (like in the cases of St Regis and Sheraton) AE. The Open Door is definitely closing.

I wish more publicity will take place so Visa and MC will finally take a stand and say "screw it, we're switching off DCC for all China. If this gets us kicked out of China a la Google, fine by us cos the state is squeezing us out anyway. Let China lose Face, and strictly enforce bans on Visa/Unionpay hybrid cards being used on Unionpay mode offshore!" Tit for tat.

percysmith

P.S. Suggestion for dealing with all DCC transaction slips (in case of non-compliance):

If carbon, then keep the customer receipt, and send a copy of that directly to your card bank for Reason Code 76 dispute if charge in HKD.

If thermal (like St Regis Shenzhen), take iPhone copy of signed merchant slip so your card issuer bank need not go ask the PRC acquirer bank for an image of the signed slip.

AA_EXP09

Never had any problems with Carrefour in TPE with a USD visa.
SZX I did have to deal with the DCC hassle though and got it reversed.
And yet the Canadian government has allowed Unionpay in all of our ATMs now.

jamar

Not all of them- actually, not even most of them. BMO, CIBC, Scotiabank is pretty much it as far as acceptance goes, I've noticed.

percysmith

Which way round - Canada ATMs accept Mainland-issued Unionpay?

So Unionpay is allowed to expand in outside of China whereas Canadian-issued cards (Visa/MC/AE) aren't accepted or only accepted with a DCC premium? Bloody pursuit of Face.

AA_EXP09

CIBC has one of the largest ATM networks in the country though.
(The biggest one, RBC, might not have it though)

AA_EXP09

Yes, the first one.
UnionPay is accepted in Canadian ATMs.
I have a RMB based bank account with minimal deposits to use in the mainland.
(I keep about �8k in the RMB account, $20K in a HKD account, $45K in a USD account, and the rest in a Canadian bank)

percysmith

Good news for Unionpay holders.
Would like to see the state reciprocate though.
Otherwise mercantilistic seigniorage.


Sure there're alternate ways to pay. Worse case - go back to days of exchanging forex at counter.

Just benefits the PRC merchant more at our expense.

jamar

That and there are Canadian-issued UnionPay cards too- ICBC's Canadian division (branded ICBK over there) issues UnionPay+Interac debit cards with CAD+RMB accounts- RMB in mainland China, CAD in Canada and elsewhere (though they warn you not to attempt to check your balance outside of Canada or China- it doesn't work but charges you anyway- great job, ICBC Canada).

percysmith

One thing with those "Mark[X] Transaction Currency" slips is that if the cashier is required to select currency at the terminal, then it's a compliant terminal. If the cashier is not required to select currency at the terminal, then the transaction has already been processed in home currency, and it is time to either a. Void or b. take iPhone photo of merchant slip with RMB selection marked for immediate Reason Code 76 dispute filing.