Using Credit Cards in China - The Great CC Rip Off (dynamic currency conversion)
Sep 16, 11, 5:49 am
#511
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Wirelessly posted (Palm850/V0100 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows CE; IEMobile 7.11))
tauphi - yes exactly. Had the SNB not intervened then yuropflyer would have ended up ahead.
Since we cannot predict future rates with certainty, I rather reduce spreads based on post date. I won't regret about foregone opportunities that can only be known after the fact.
tauphi - yes exactly. Had the SNB not intervened then yuropflyer would have ended up ahead.
Since we cannot predict future rates with certainty, I rather reduce spreads based on post date. I won't regret about foregone opportunities that can only be known after the fact.
Sep 16, 11, 9:19 am
#512
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No, it was a few weeks earlier.. I only get my CC bills with quite some delay, and the stay there was just about at the start of the billing period.. I always just check my CC printouts, and when there is everything fine, don't do anything more, so I'm hardly really checking them - just this time I had a DCC AND a non-DCC slip, I was checking it. And surprised about the result.
The CHF was quite moving up and down in the last few months, so it might as well have been a day where it went up or down 2-3% (not that massive as last week when it was 8% in 5min) - anyone know a website where I can check any specific day in the past few months for currency rates? I'll be more than glad to check the day for any massive moves.
The CHF was quite moving up and down in the last few months, so it might as well have been a day where it went up or down 2-3% (not that massive as last week when it was 8% in 5min) - anyone know a website where I can check any specific day in the past few months for currency rates? I'll be more than glad to check the day for any massive moves.
Sep 17, 11, 4:45 pm
#513
Join Date: Apr 2009
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The CHF was quite moving up and down in the last few months, so it might as well have been a day where it went up or down 2-3% (not that massive as last week when it was 8% in 5min) - anyone know a website where I can check any specific day in the past few months for currency rates? I'll be more than glad to check the day for any massive moves.
http://www.google.com/finance?q=chfcny
Sep 17, 11, 8:10 pm
#514
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awww.. I just realized something.. my last hotel stay in China, the Hilton (near Shanghai) tried to DCC me, I let them reverse, and do the bill in RMB, working fine. I got all the receipts, inluding the non-accepted DCC. I doubt they did it intentionally, anyway. (Pretty new property)
But.. now I realised I better should let them have DCC me!
Bill was 825 RMB, on the DCC bill they printed 114.25 CHF - now that I got the CC statement, it was 115.55 CHF on it. Exchange rate was fine, and I'm having a credit card which usually has very good exchange rates (Cornerbank M&M, only adding 0.9% to bank exchange rates)
Anyway.. apparently by NOT DCC'ing, I spent 1% more, than had I allowed DCC.. I know that usually DCC is always putting you at a disadvantage, so I'm very much surprised why/who I wasn't here.. if DCC would indeed NOT mean a massive surcharge but +/- the same, but directly on my own currency (I guess I would accept a 0.1% surcharge in average - but of course not what it used to be with 3-5%) then I would be more than happy.
Anyone else made the same spottings? Or is that maybe just because the currencies went wild in the last few months? After all, shouldn't DCC mean they're taking that days exchange rate, just as my CC company will as well?
But.. now I realised I better should let them have DCC me!
Bill was 825 RMB, on the DCC bill they printed 114.25 CHF - now that I got the CC statement, it was 115.55 CHF on it. Exchange rate was fine, and I'm having a credit card which usually has very good exchange rates (Cornerbank M&M, only adding 0.9% to bank exchange rates)
Anyway.. apparently by NOT DCC'ing, I spent 1% more, than had I allowed DCC.. I know that usually DCC is always putting you at a disadvantage, so I'm very much surprised why/who I wasn't here.. if DCC would indeed NOT mean a massive surcharge but +/- the same, but directly on my own currency (I guess I would accept a 0.1% surcharge in average - but of course not what it used to be with 3-5%) then I would be more than happy.
Anyone else made the same spottings? Or is that maybe just because the currencies went wild in the last few months? After all, shouldn't DCC mean they're taking that days exchange rate, just as my CC company will as well?
Sep 17, 11, 8:28 pm
#515
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I noticed that also, you ask them to charge in rmb, they agree
then the CC statement comes and they DCCed you but the overall
cost is less than if they charged RMB.
I think the banks must have adjusted everything to help out
the consumer.
then the CC statement comes and they DCCed you but the overall
cost is less than if they charged RMB.
I think the banks must have adjusted everything to help out
the consumer.
Sep 17, 11, 11:52 pm
#516
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Sep 19, 11, 12:37 am
#517
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My guess would be that the transaction occurred pre-devaluation, but didn't post until afterwards.
Sep 22, 11, 1:42 am
#518
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Wirelessly posted (Palm850/V0100 Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows CE; IEMobile 7.11))
My applause for Global Payments Taiwan is misplaced. Global Payments (HSBC) must have been surpised to hear there's a compliant terminal on their system, and promptly buttfxcked it.
This week I'm spending some quality time with my girlfriend in Taiwan. I'm writing this mid trip, tho most of the card-swiping (and the below DCC buttfxck) was on day 1.
Everything from the Taipei airport bus, THSR, Tu Hsiao Yueh and Eslite processed my Shacom PLK MC ($1.6/mile) correctly. Even a small little restaurant in the Sun Moon Lake took my MC without complaint. The only places that didn't take my MC is Chunghwa Telecom for my prepaid card (but for NTD50/day for unlimited 3G data it's a must buy) and 7-Eleven.
All was well until I got to the hotel (a Chinatrust hotel). I suspected hotels are a popular DCC spot (my "model" DCC transaction is Grand Hyatt Taipei). I followed the cashier to the terminal, which had a big Global Payments logo, which the cashiers blu-tacked "Hui Feng" (HSBC) in Chinese.
I was presented a DCC slip with exactly the same wording as Grand Hyatt Taipei, and I even started signing it, looking up to remind the cashier "and you will charge NTD, won't you?".
"No choice" came the reply. She already was printing the customer copy (first slip from left). Unlike the Grand Hyatt slip, no currency choice is printed.
The next thing my girlfriend must have seen me do was lean on my stomach over the counter, waving my arms and demanding the cashier do it again.
The cashier was helpful, and has probably seen this complaint before. She repeated the process step by step.
1. Stick card into EMV chip reader.
2. Key in Enter (I think) and amount followed by Enter
3. Machine starts printing out merchant copy and customer copy (third slip from left).
The machine no longer stops between merchant and customer copies then before
And when the cashier reversed the payment (twice), the following is printed (second and fourth from left):
Local AMT: -NTD1,602
FX rate: 0.2742199HKD/NTD
TXN AMT: -HKD439.30
Quite evidently, Hui Feng has decided it can dispense with the choice for merchants' customers to opt into DCC, and buttfxck everyone.
My poor cashier had the patience to transact the amount for the third time, this time using my SCB AE card...I can't complain of her persistence.
For reference, the SCB AE just posted yesterday for 428.42 or NTD3.74/HKD. The above DCC rate quoted indirectly is 3.65, the rate I got for fee-free SCB withdrawals is 3.72 and the HKAB sell rate was 3.73. So the DCC scalp is 2%. Of course I also lose the $2.5/mile earn rate on foreign spending for $8/mile normal HKD spending earn rate.
Having seen the reverse slip, I can better appreciate Jamar's Secrep Recipe slip now. It'll print merchant slip as if there's a choice, the customer slip without a recorded choice, whilst in the back end DCC would have applied no matter what u do.
It's not Hui Feng China that's the problem. When it comes to ripping customers off, the World's Local Bank is very global.
Originally Posted by percysmith
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows CE; IEMobile 7.11))
(After reading Jamar's void slip again)
I've just noticed the my "model" specimen Grand Hyatt Taipei bill http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...hk-33.html#492 is not as "model" as first thought.
Nothing wrong with the transaction - it came out right. My NTD33,700 came out as NTD33,700/HKD9,130.07, not HKD9,256.28/HKD9,256.28 as offered by DCC.
The confusing bit is the DCC message still being printed on the statement:
"I have chosen not to use the MasterCard
currency conversion process and agree
that I will have no recourse against
Mastercard concerning the currency
conversion or its disclosure"
This is inappropriate because DCC has been *successfully* refused, so the message shouldn't appear. I *have* chosen to use the Mastercard currency conversion process, otherwise I can't get HKD9,130.07.
So the message is not conclusive of whether DCC has been applied or successfully refused. DCC implementation is so fxcked up even in the hands of experienced and honest merchants and acquirers!
(After reading Jamar's void slip again)
I've just noticed the my "model" specimen Grand Hyatt Taipei bill http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...hk-33.html#492 is not as "model" as first thought.
Nothing wrong with the transaction - it came out right. My NTD33,700 came out as NTD33,700/HKD9,130.07, not HKD9,256.28/HKD9,256.28 as offered by DCC.
The confusing bit is the DCC message still being printed on the statement:
"I have chosen not to use the MasterCard
currency conversion process and agree
that I will have no recourse against
Mastercard concerning the currency
conversion or its disclosure"
This is inappropriate because DCC has been *successfully* refused, so the message shouldn't appear. I *have* chosen to use the Mastercard currency conversion process, otherwise I can't get HKD9,130.07.
So the message is not conclusive of whether DCC has been applied or successfully refused. DCC implementation is so fxcked up even in the hands of experienced and honest merchants and acquirers!
This week I'm spending some quality time with my girlfriend in Taiwan. I'm writing this mid trip, tho most of the card-swiping (and the below DCC buttfxck) was on day 1.
Everything from the Taipei airport bus, THSR, Tu Hsiao Yueh and Eslite processed my Shacom PLK MC ($1.6/mile) correctly. Even a small little restaurant in the Sun Moon Lake took my MC without complaint. The only places that didn't take my MC is Chunghwa Telecom for my prepaid card (but for NTD50/day for unlimited 3G data it's a must buy) and 7-Eleven.
All was well until I got to the hotel (a Chinatrust hotel). I suspected hotels are a popular DCC spot (my "model" DCC transaction is Grand Hyatt Taipei). I followed the cashier to the terminal, which had a big Global Payments logo, which the cashiers blu-tacked "Hui Feng" (HSBC) in Chinese.
I was presented a DCC slip with exactly the same wording as Grand Hyatt Taipei, and I even started signing it, looking up to remind the cashier "and you will charge NTD, won't you?".
"No choice" came the reply. She already was printing the customer copy (first slip from left). Unlike the Grand Hyatt slip, no currency choice is printed.
The next thing my girlfriend must have seen me do was lean on my stomach over the counter, waving my arms and demanding the cashier do it again.
The cashier was helpful, and has probably seen this complaint before. She repeated the process step by step.
1. Stick card into EMV chip reader.
2. Key in Enter (I think) and amount followed by Enter
3. Machine starts printing out merchant copy and customer copy (third slip from left).
The machine no longer stops between merchant and customer copies then before
And when the cashier reversed the payment (twice), the following is printed (second and fourth from left):
Local AMT: -NTD1,602
FX rate: 0.2742199HKD/NTD
TXN AMT: -HKD439.30
Quite evidently, Hui Feng has decided it can dispense with the choice for merchants' customers to opt into DCC, and buttfxck everyone.
My poor cashier had the patience to transact the amount for the third time, this time using my SCB AE card...I can't complain of her persistence.
For reference, the SCB AE just posted yesterday for 428.42 or NTD3.74/HKD. The above DCC rate quoted indirectly is 3.65, the rate I got for fee-free SCB withdrawals is 3.72 and the HKAB sell rate was 3.73. So the DCC scalp is 2%. Of course I also lose the $2.5/mile earn rate on foreign spending for $8/mile normal HKD spending earn rate.
Having seen the reverse slip, I can better appreciate Jamar's Secrep Recipe slip now. It'll print merchant slip as if there's a choice, the customer slip without a recorded choice, whilst in the back end DCC would have applied no matter what u do.
It's not Hui Feng China that's the problem. When it comes to ripping customers off, the World's Local Bank is very global.
Last edited by percysmith; Oct 2, 11 at 1:45 am
Sep 22, 11, 8:58 am
#519
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Well, that's just lovely. Now it's spreading. They've probably decided they like the profit they're making on the mainland and want to bring the practice to the outer territories.
Glad I have a Discover and local UnionPay CC for local spend now, though with Discover charging 2% on foreign spend, someone's getting the extra either way (and the rewards on the ICBC China card kind of suck, though they're better than what SCB China offers on its debit cards).
I should also add, though, that for others, again, if the merchant terminal for foreign cards is the same as those used for UnionPay cards and prints UnionPay slips but with a shorthand marking (VIS=Visa, AMX=AmEx, etc), you're generally safe. Bank of Shanghai (what's the deal with them and ShaCom?) and other smaller acquirers seem to be like this.
Glad I have a Discover and local UnionPay CC for local spend now, though with Discover charging 2% on foreign spend, someone's getting the extra either way (and the rewards on the ICBC China card kind of suck, though they're better than what SCB China offers on its debit cards).
I should also add, though, that for others, again, if the merchant terminal for foreign cards is the same as those used for UnionPay cards and prints UnionPay slips but with a shorthand marking (VIS=Visa, AMX=AmEx, etc), you're generally safe. Bank of Shanghai (what's the deal with them and ShaCom?) and other smaller acquirers seem to be like this.
Last edited by jamar; Sep 22, 11 at 9:27 am
Sep 23, 11, 5:47 am
#520
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(Taiwan trip cont'd) After a few days on a local tour (read: minimal card spending to do) we ended up back in TPE early last evening and started to hit the clubbing spots. Being low on cash, I took my Shacom MC to charge as much as I can.
The first spot we hit were Spark 101. Chinatrust NTD txn no problems there.
The next spot was a bit of a shock - in house DCCed me. On being presented with the slip, with the hostess again already holding the customer copy, I walked the hostess back, forked over cash and demanded the transaction be reversed. The cashier presented me with another DCC slip to sign and I launched into a Mandarin tirade about how HKD is still there and she didn't fix anything. It turns out she merely wanted my signature on her (merchant) copy of the reversal slip - I don't know why that's necessary but I didn't see any problems signing for something that will give me money (I didn't sign the original DCC slip), so OK.
Room 18 was cover charge at the door so no help there (the day will come where clubs will take miles-earning Visa Paywave cards, but meanwhile cash is still king in tight spots).
On my suggestion (given Living Room is one of our favourite drinking places in HK), we headed to W Taipei's WOObar. The sitting cages rock (literally) but being a hotel we naturally got DCCed.
I made the point of specifically asking for NTD in advance to no avail...Girlfriend was getting used to seeing me wave my arms and demand DCC reversals at this stage and thank goodness the server served the DCC charge and reversal slips on a plate.
I love the fact Taiwan card slips almost always identify the acquirer, unlike the anonymous cowards that most HK acquirers are. W Taipei WOObar is a Global Payments merchant like the Chinatrust hotel (logos on back of slip). in house's slips were marked with "TS" characters on the back. My first guess is Taishin Bank http://wapedia.mobi/en/List_of_banks_in_Taiwan but I have a bona fide Taishin Bank card slip and it looks nothing like the in house slip (not to mention DCC was not applied). The first four digits of in house's merchant and terminal IDs match those of WOObar and the Chinatrust hotel, and the font and wording is similar, so I concluded the acquirer is Global Payments again but printed on anonymous coward paper.
(Taiwan trip cont'd) After a few days on a local tour (read: minimal card spending to do) we ended up back in TPE early last evening and started to hit the clubbing spots. Being low on cash, I took my Shacom MC to charge as much as I can.
The first spot we hit were Spark 101. Chinatrust NTD txn no problems there.
The next spot was a bit of a shock - in house DCCed me. On being presented with the slip, with the hostess again already holding the customer copy, I walked the hostess back, forked over cash and demanded the transaction be reversed. The cashier presented me with another DCC slip to sign and I launched into a Mandarin tirade about how HKD is still there and she didn't fix anything. It turns out she merely wanted my signature on her (merchant) copy of the reversal slip - I don't know why that's necessary but I didn't see any problems signing for something that will give me money (I didn't sign the original DCC slip), so OK.
Room 18 was cover charge at the door so no help there (the day will come where clubs will take miles-earning Visa Paywave cards, but meanwhile cash is still king in tight spots).
On my suggestion (given Living Room is one of our favourite drinking places in HK), we headed to W Taipei's WOObar. The sitting cages rock (literally) but being a hotel we naturally got DCCed.
I made the point of specifically asking for NTD in advance to no avail...Girlfriend was getting used to seeing me wave my arms and demand DCC reversals at this stage and thank goodness the server served the DCC charge and reversal slips on a plate.
I love the fact Taiwan card slips almost always identify the acquirer, unlike the anonymous cowards that most HK acquirers are. W Taipei WOObar is a Global Payments merchant like the Chinatrust hotel (logos on back of slip). in house's slips were marked with "TS" characters on the back. My first guess is Taishin Bank http://wapedia.mobi/en/List_of_banks_in_Taiwan but I have a bona fide Taishin Bank card slip and it looks nothing like the in house slip (not to mention DCC was not applied). The first four digits of in house's merchant and terminal IDs match those of WOObar and the Chinatrust hotel, and the font and wording is similar, so I concluded the acquirer is Global Payments again but printed on anonymous coward paper.
Last edited by percysmith; Sep 23, 11 at 6:46 am
Sep 24, 11, 11:25 pm
#521
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I should also add, though, that for others, again, if the merchant terminal for foreign cards is the same as those used for UnionPay cards and prints UnionPay slips but with a shorthand marking (VIS=Visa, AMX=AmEx, etc), you're generally safe. Bank of Shanghai (what's the deal with them and ShaCom?) and other smaller acquirers seem to be like this.
Shacom HK ownes 3% of so of Bank of Shanghai PRC http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%B8%...8A%80%E8%A1%8C.
TW Shanghai Commercial and Savings bank is Shacom HK's parent.
Last edited by percysmith; Oct 26, 11 at 7:13 pm
Oct 1, 11, 9:17 pm
#522
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Also, for Americans planning to come here, Discover is dropping its forex fee back to zero in November, so I'd definitely recommend using it if possible. Zero risk of DCC And increased acceptance since it processes as UnionPay here in China (in other words, if the merchant says "we don't take foreign cards", make them try- I've made people double-take when my Discover processes just fine).
(perhaps this should be put at the top)
(perhaps this should be put at the top)
Oct 1, 11, 9:53 pm
#523
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Great for you yanks. FU V/MC!!!
Last edited by percysmith; Oct 1, 11 at 9:59 pm
Oct 2, 11, 1:14 am
#524
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Also, for Americans planning to come here, Discover is dropping its forex fee back to zero in November, so I'd definitely recommend using it if possible. Zero risk of DCC And increased acceptance since it processes as UnionPay here in China (in other words, if the merchant says "we don't take foreign cards", make them try- I've made people double-take when my Discover processes just fine).
(perhaps this should be put at the top)
(perhaps this should be put at the top)
Oct 2, 11, 2:01 am
#525
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I wish there's a similar option for my Aussie friends. Getting RMB's pricey for them, and their Australian AEs aren't accepted everywhere. Visa would have covered more payments, but compulstory DCC is like additional transaction charge to them.
Too bad Australia's lost its national payment system (Bankcard) to Visa and MC in 2006. Otherwise Unionpay could have struck a reciprocal deal with it similar to the Discover deal in the US.
===
I'm heading to Shanghai in two weeks. Yes I have an AE (SCB, HK HK$2.5/mile) and Unionpay (Bankcomm HK, HK$4/mile) card, but if I can charge RMB to my Shacom Visa card I get HK$1.6/mile.
I'll probably check out a lot of bars, many within hotels.
I plan to use it. I'll walk all waiters back to their cashiers. If Shacom Visa accepted but DCC'ed, I'll reverse try my AE or Unionpay instead. As I'll be with Girlfriend, I won't try reverse engineering the terminals (maybe except at our hotel, where I have to pay for the room).
But how many places in Shanghai will still take Visa without DCC I wonder?
