Using Credit Cards in China - The Great CC Rip Off (dynamic currency conversion)
Aug 9, 11, 11:01 pm
#466
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Aug 10, 11, 11:21 am
#467
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Aug 10, 11, 1:35 pm
#468
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Like I've suggested before, if we can put this beast in its grave, in addition to saving ourselves $50/month/person, we'll be able to help the 99% of travelers that don't know or don't care.
Aug 10, 11, 9:50 pm
#469
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In fact, I've been seeing more Visa acceptance in China (anecdotally), now that they're allowed to rip cardholders off and gain revenue from card use rather than suffer losses from merchant fees - provincial city hotels and third-line golf courses in Shenzhen are happy to take Visa.
Sadly and unfashionably, the only way to avoid this scam to either visit higher-end merchants and use Amex, or to "comply" and obtain a Unionpay-compatible card in US (Discover) or HK (dual-currency Unionpay).
Aug 10, 11, 10:22 pm
#470
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[QUOTE=percysmith;16899920]
In fact, I've been seeing more Visa acceptance in China (anecdotally), now that they're allowed to rip cardholders off and gain revenue from card use rather than suffer losses from merchant fees - provincial city hotels and third-line golf courses in Shenzhen are happy to take Visa.
QUOTE]
Card Processing Salesperson:
You want to make more sales?
Merchant:
I don't want credit cards, fees to high, I lose money.
Card Processing Salesperson:
I can show you a way to cheat the foreign credit card customer so
you pay no fees.
Merchant:
OK, get me a terminal tomorrow and I want a big Visa Mastercard sign for
my window.
Card Processing Salesperson:
Done deal, sign here!^
In fact, I've been seeing more Visa acceptance in China (anecdotally), now that they're allowed to rip cardholders off and gain revenue from card use rather than suffer losses from merchant fees - provincial city hotels and third-line golf courses in Shenzhen are happy to take Visa.
QUOTE]
Card Processing Salesperson:
You want to make more sales?
Merchant:
I don't want credit cards, fees to high, I lose money.
Card Processing Salesperson:
I can show you a way to cheat the foreign credit card customer so
you pay no fees.
Merchant:
OK, get me a terminal tomorrow and I want a big Visa Mastercard sign for
my window.
Card Processing Salesperson:
Done deal, sign here!^
Aug 10, 11, 10:42 pm
#471
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Card Processing Salesperson:
You want to make more sales?
Merchant:
I don't want credit cards, fees to high, I lose money.
Card Processing Salesperson:
I can show you a way to cheat the foreign credit card customer so
you pay no fees.
Merchant:
OK, get me a terminal tomorrow and I want a big Visa Mastercard sign for
my window.
Card Processing Salesperson:
Done deal, sign here!^
You want to make more sales?
Merchant:
I don't want credit cards, fees to high, I lose money.
Card Processing Salesperson:
I can show you a way to cheat the foreign credit card customer so
you pay no fees.
Merchant:
OK, get me a terminal tomorrow and I want a big Visa Mastercard sign for
my window.
Card Processing Salesperson:
Done deal, sign here!^
Of course, I can't say categorically that all merchants install DCC to scam customers or even of their own free will - Secrep Recipe and Lily's don't seem to set out to do either http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...l#post16343265 .
However places like Magic Media http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-27.html#397 , the provincial-city hotel and the Shenzhen golf course have/appear to have installed DCC cos it's not just cost free, it's profitable to them.
Aug 11, 11, 1:42 am
#472
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Something like that. Furthermore, unlike HK/US - there aren't any locally-issued Visa/Mastercards in China. Every card will be subject to the DCC scam.
Of course, I can't say categorically that all merchants install DCC to scam customers or even of their own free will - Secrep Recipe and Lily's don't seem to set out to do either http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...l#post16343265 .
However places like Magic Media http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-27.html#397 , the provincial-city hotel and the Shenzhen golf course have/appear to have installed DCC cos it's not just cost free, it's profitable to them.
Of course, I can't say categorically that all merchants install DCC to scam customers or even of their own free will - Secrep Recipe and Lily's don't seem to set out to do either http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...l#post16343265 .
However places like Magic Media http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-27.html#397 , the provincial-city hotel and the Shenzhen golf course have/appear to have installed DCC cos it's not just cost free, it's profitable to them.
Aug 11, 11, 4:11 am
#473
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But with mum and dad shops, esp Secrep Recipe and its manageress (who I believe is the proprietor), it's not hard to imagine the acquirer technicians coming in to perform a "system-wide upgrade" and replace old terminals with DCC ones. The fee structure could be completely untouched, meaning even the merchant is screwed out of his (her) profits too.
Merchant could be innocent here. It could be a lot easier for the Secrep Recipe proprietress to turn DCC off than let a foreign devil screw around the card terminal for minutes.
Merchant could be innocent here. It could be a lot easier for the Secrep Recipe proprietress to turn DCC off than let a foreign devil screw around the card terminal for minutes.
It's actually Secret Recipe and it's hardly a "mum-and-dad" shop. It's a not-so-small Malaysian chain restaurant with locations scattered across the continent from what I can tell. And in that regard I wonder if they've got some region-wide deal with HSBC for the machines. (and it could very well only be the people "back home" benefiting, with the manageress not seeing any of the benefit either)
Though on the other hand, they may not have that much of a connection to the Malaysian corporate parent depending on the franchising agreement (the Chinese subsidiary doesn't even have its own website).
Though on the other hand, they may not have that much of a connection to the Malaysian corporate parent depending on the franchising agreement (the Chinese subsidiary doesn't even have its own website).
Aug 11, 11, 10:53 am
#474
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[QUOTE=percysmith;16900156]However places like Magic Media http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-27.html#397 , the provincial-city hotel and the Shenzhen golf course have/appear to have installed DCC cos it's not just cost free, it's profitable to them.[/QUOTE]
Forgot to add Merchant Processing Sales Persons other pitch:
"Don't even worry about any chargebacks when you cheat the customer,
the bank will take care of that". "This is a win win proposition for you and me"
Forgot to add Merchant Processing Sales Persons other pitch:
"Don't even worry about any chargebacks when you cheat the customer,
the bank will take care of that". "This is a win win proposition for you and me"
Aug 11, 11, 11:57 am
#475
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[QUOTE=anacapamalibu;16902615]
I am tempted to go the "charge back" route during my next go around with Schwab. In spite of the fact that this animal is not suited for "charge backs", I still reserve the right to try... enormous amount of paperwork for both Schwab and the processing banks in China. The way I see it, 80 man hours would be wasted on dealing with my single batch order; the Chinese banks might not care about this, but I have a hunch that FIA Card Services might.
My point is that if we give the US side enough grief, they might be compelled to motivate Visa to set things straight. While I respect the fact that giving up on Visa is a reasonable course of action, I want my 2% cash back, and I aspire to change the game for the rest of the traveling community.
However places like Magic Media http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...on-27.html#397 , the provincial-city hotel and the Shenzhen golf course have/appear to have installed DCC cos it's not just cost free, it's profitable to them.
Forgot to add Merchant Processing Sales Persons other pitch:
"Don't even worry about any chargebacks when you cheat the customer,
the bank will take care of that". "This is a win win proposition for you and me"
Forgot to add Merchant Processing Sales Persons other pitch:
"Don't even worry about any chargebacks when you cheat the customer,
the bank will take care of that". "This is a win win proposition for you and me"
My point is that if we give the US side enough grief, they might be compelled to motivate Visa to set things straight. While I respect the fact that giving up on Visa is a reasonable course of action, I want my 2% cash back, and I aspire to change the game for the rest of the traveling community.
Aug 12, 11, 1:38 am
#476
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[QUOTE=moondog;16902997]
I am tempted to go the "charge back" route during my next go around with Schwab. In spite of the fact that this animal is not suited for "charge backs", I still reserve the right to try... enormous amount of paperwork for both Schwab and the processing banks in China. The way I see it, 80 man hours would be wasted on dealing with my single batch order; the Chinese banks might not care about this, but I have a hunch that FIA Card Services might.
My point is that if we give the US side enough grief, they might be compelled to motivate Visa to set things straight. While I respect the fact that giving up on Visa is a reasonable course of action, I want my 2% cash back, and I aspire to change the game for the rest of the traveling community.
Hey Moondog, it isn't Schwab anymore, it's FIA. And they're owned by BOA. Don't you love the oh-so-corporate feel? 
I am tempted to go the "charge back" route during my next go around with Schwab. In spite of the fact that this animal is not suited for "charge backs", I still reserve the right to try... enormous amount of paperwork for both Schwab and the processing banks in China. The way I see it, 80 man hours would be wasted on dealing with my single batch order; the Chinese banks might not care about this, but I have a hunch that FIA Card Services might.
My point is that if we give the US side enough grief, they might be compelled to motivate Visa to set things straight. While I respect the fact that giving up on Visa is a reasonable course of action, I want my 2% cash back, and I aspire to change the game for the rest of the traveling community.
Aug 12, 11, 3:31 am
#477
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y point is that if we give the US side enough grief, they might be compelled to motivate Visa to set things straight. While I respect the fact that giving up on Visa is a reasonable course of action, I want my 2% cash back, and I aspire to change the game for the rest of the traveling community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=405000340
DCC has proved incredibly popular to acquirers as the foreign exchange revenue that was earned by the issuer is now transferred to the acquirer. Given that in most countries, issuers are also acquirers. the FX revenue they have lost from their card holders who travel overseas, they also have benefited from implementing DCC at their merchants in their country. For most acquirers, the two level each other out creating a zero net effect.
Interestingly in 2007 Visa and MasterCard and its members settled $336 million in a landmark case regarding undisclosed foreign currency revenue. The antitrust litigation settlement was one of several against the schemes for activities that have been shown to be illegal, uncompetitive or monopolistic. Dynamic Currency Conversion gives Acquirers the ability for the merchant to disclose the true rate at the point of sale thereby removing the problem of undisclosed profits in a consumer friendly way.
http://www.law360.com/topnews/articl...edit-card-fees
Law360, New York (October 22, 2009) -- A $336 million settlement a class of consumers reached with credit card companies and banks accused of breaching federal and state antitrust laws by colluding to fix foreign currency fees has been granted approval by a federal judge, three years after the defendants put the money away in escrow to repay the plaintiffs.
Aug 12, 11, 3:47 am
#478
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http://www.ccfsettlement.com/home/
Aug 12, 11, 5:09 am
#479
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Are you really sure there are no Chinese Visa/MC? I'm pretty sure I've seen (mainland) Chinese with Visa cards quite a while ago.. I doubt they were HK-issued..
Aug 12, 11, 6:19 am
#480
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You can use Visa mode on a PRC-issued Visa card in China, but you get billed in USD and translated back to RMB (by your Chinese issuer bank).
These cards are usually Unionpay-coded as well* so there's no reason whey Visa will be used domestically except on request.
* (I'm not sure all PRC-issued Visas have to have Unionpay coding, I just haven't seen a PRC Visa without Unionpay yet).
