I think the case I outlined demonstrates that: 1) the people that make such decisions aren't connected to the local merchants in BJ and SH in the same manner as the PHX airport authority; 2) they don't care whether or not Americans visit their country; and 3) the reciprocity thing gels well with them.

I'm not arguing for anything - I frankly don't give a hoot whether they lower or raise it. I merely pointed out what I felt was an ill-formed opinion. :(:( And do you really think China is going to listen to your (or my) suggestions on tourism policy?

Another country - Indonesia - charges an entry visa every-time you land for USA citizens, $25 each time, stay cannot extend beyond 30 days. If you make a few visits a year, that will more than cover the $140 China charges for a one year visa. Do they make money from this? Yes. Do they make a huge profit? I don't know and frankly don't care.....

Moondog below also makes some valid points - I think we're taking a very ethnocentric (i.e. western USA) perspective. It is Asia and when in Rome, do what the Romans do.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure there aren't a lot of high-level Chinese officials sitting around wondering how they can make life easier for US tourists, and how to boost US tourism. :)

And, obviously, the US gov't can't complain, as we're making life hard for Chinese visa applicants.

Sure.

Only (and this doesn't just apply to PRC citizens) that a significant number of Chinese visa applicants are potential immigration threats (ie. overstay, settling etc), whereas I would figure the vast majority of Americans are not. We'll go, see some sights, snap some photos, spend a ton of money and then leave.

The best kind of tourist :p

Exactly. China doesn't need to worry much about people using tourist visas to sneak in so there's no reason to be strict about it.

I can't wait to see what you get. I go at least once a year and they usually give me a 1 year, 60day, multiple entry visa. Though getting a new visa every year fills up my passport pretty quickly.

Anyone can drop off or pick up the passports and applications, the applicant doesn't have to be there. For pick up they just require the receipt they give you when you drop them off.

While that may be true, the underlying rationale (which Jamoldo spelled out) is unsettling to the BJ government. In their view, China is just as great as the US, and the tit-for-tat policy reinforces this.

Right, but you'd better be paying somebody to go for you. It's definitely a PITA, as the lines are long and the requirements are ever shifting. I went myself, at some inconvenience, because I didn't want to pay an agency to do it for 4 visas, and there wasn't anyone I knew who I wanted to subject to the "torture."

I am having somebody pick the visas up for me. That seems easier (no need to take a number), and I hope they're out of there in 30 minutes.

Right, it matters little that there's a "reasonable explanation" for the US procedures (people might want to sneak into the country), and not much of a reason for the Chinese rule. Once we charge $140 and have complicated procedures, China will charge $140 and annoy the applicants. It's an equality thing.

BTW, the Russians are even worse. They insist on asking you a million pointless questions and provide various ridiculous information. And you have to get your hotel to "invite" you.

Actually, the majority from China that want to stay (illegally) don't apply for tourists visas, they pay the snakes to smuggle them into the states!

AND there are also an even more significant number of illegal immigrants that come to stay from Europe/Africa as well as south of our borders.

Boy, has this thread morphed. But what the heck....LOL

Actually, nowadays the majority from China that stay illegally are on legitimately issued visas for various purposes. Since tracking aliens once they are inside the USA is slipshod at best, there is ample opportunity for overstays. It might surprise you to know that in the last decade, one of the fastest growing groups of Chinese visa-overstayers was grannies! That's right. Adult kids would be working or studying in the USA and have a new baby. Grandma and Grandpa Wang in China would get visas to go visit for awhile. After 2 weeks in USA, Grandpa gets sick of not having any decent Chinese food and his chat buddies...and goes home. Grandma stays on to help with new baby, in true Chinese fashion, and before you know it, several months has gone by and she's now an overstay. Then there are the groups on business visits (and appropriate visas), ostensibly for USA factory tours and negotiations and the like, who somehow never find their way onto the plane back home. I remember one case a few years ago where a well-known member of Congress had his staff (for his state's business promo purposes) sponsor a group of Chinese businessmen--of which a number of the group never went back to China. Very embarassing. The US Embassy in China was not amused.

Point #1 is, the dramatic newscasts of the Chinese found in the ships' containers are only a small fraction now of the Chinese illegals and overstayers (used to be more common).

Point #2 and circling back to this thread is, the reverse situation of Americans overstaying visas isn't common at all--except in sporadic individual cases and usually due to carelessness or stupidity, more rarely due to planned subterfuge. The US fee to others of $140 is to cover costs of the processing and the interview/evaluation. The Chinese fee to US citizens of $140 is to put a sticker in passport, and to keep up Face and image of Equality.

What's different and quite unfair is the Chinese grant only multiple visits during a 12 months period at most. While the US visa is generally good for Chinese to have multiple visits over a number of years.

I still think we (Americans) get the better end of the stick.

About 2 years ago, I brought a delegation of 8 Chinese people (Jinan based) to the US. While the precise details elude me, that was a really annoying and expensive process. All required interviews in BJ during business hours, and since the US Consulate was unable to provide guaranteed slots to several, the length of the interview trip was uncertain. We needed plane tickets (to the US) as well... more similar.

Second example, one of my friends married a Chinese lady about 5 years ago and tried to get visas for her family members to attend the wedding reception. Again, interviews and plane tickets for all (iirc, they have to pay for interviews and visas separately). 3 out of 10 were rejected due to "flight risk" (i.e. failure to demonstrate strong enough attachment to China).

We should compare numbers when we meet up to Bj one day for dinner at that well known restaurant!

My sense is the illegals coming from Fujian and other southern provinces by way of the snakes are significantly larger than those that overstay their visas. Plus nowadays, the number of overstays decreasing...as Chinese economy grows?

And Moondog is right about getting either business or even educational visas for stateside post 9/11 (for any nationality, not just Chinese). I can share some perspectives off-line from state department friends who worked in the various consulates in China in the late 90's and early 2000's. They claim to have a science/matrix developed re who gets in and who gets the boot????

I've also been in the position of having to push to arrange visas for Chinese business guests visiting the company in the USA. (Aside: Funny how no matter what the industry or issue at hand is, all delegations specifically demand to be routed to Las Vegas to see the "factories" :D ) Usually there were always 10% (1-2 out of 10-12 member proposed delegation) that would be refused a visa. From insider friends doing Consular in the Beijing Embassy and a couple of the Consulates, I'd say it might not be literally a "scientific matrix" but there are things they are looking for, that are considered red flags. If you look like you have not much reason to go back to China, it will be assumed you won't. I don't have any sympathy for the Chinese on the visa issue. Too many of their countrymen and women created the problem for their fellow citizens. There's a reason the US doesn't routinely toss as many visa obstacles in front of the Japanese or the Swedes.

I totally agree with the first sentence.

But your comparison to J & S is apple to oranges .... China was until recently a closed society, you couldn't get in and you couldn't get out. Folks fail to realize it wasn't that long ago that it really opened up. J & S (your examples) generally have been open (ok, let's not get into Japanese history), don't have good reason to remain illegally stateside, etc. A better comparison might be folks south of our borders

None of the above by the way is relevant to why China charges what it charges for visas, or grants or denies visa applications from the states.

As expected, I got a 1-year multiple entry tourist visa, each visit limited to 30 days.

Wish I got 2 years, because I typically go only once a year. Still, it's better than they used to give.