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And you thought liquid checks were bad....Here come powders

And you thought liquid checks were bad....Here come powders

Old Aug 23, 09, 7:42 pm
  #181  
 
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Originally Posted by Bart View Post
I know what the current policy is. I know what the current procedures are. I know how I train my TSOs.
Then I guess the busiest airport in the world doesn't know what is correct. Here is the response I received just last month.

I checked with Security Management. You are correct. Passengers are encouraged, but not required to place their footwear directly on the belt. If you choose to place your footwear in a bin, please consider placing them in a bin by themselves.
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Old Aug 23, 09, 8:42 pm
  #182  
 
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins View Post
In fact, I was a kid in the 70s, and went through all sorts of education in elementary school and middle school about the metric system. I was perfectly ready to make the switch, 'cuz all the grown-ups said that it was important to do so. Somehow, it never happened.

The problem with making the switch is that The Powers That Be should've just said "we're switching, deal with it". If you ask people whether or not they want to change something in their lives --- myself included --- they're more likely to say "no, I like my life the way it is". Switching can't be a matter of choice.
+1

Australia changed in the 70's; older people will still say things like "or six feet in the old system" but everyone buys meat in kilograms, petrol in litres and carpet in square metres. The US just wimped out.

Don't the (endless, droning) US airport announcements still say something like "liquids weighing more than 3 ounces are not allowed into the sterile area"? That's got to be the trifecta of dumb - it's not weight, it's volume; it's not 3, it's 3.4; and some liquids are allowed under the numerous exceptions.
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Old Aug 24, 09, 4:34 am
  #183  
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Last edited by Bart; Sep 18, 09 at 7:12 pm
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Old Aug 24, 09, 5:55 am
  #184  
 
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Originally Posted by halls120 View Post
That is NOT what is happening in real life. Out of the last four times I've had the misfortune of encountering a TSA checkpoint, twice the TSO rudely pulled my shoes out of the pin and placed them on the belt.

Of course, in NRT, in HKG, in KUL, in SIN, I never had to take my shoes off in the first place.
Just how does one "rudely" pull shoes out of a bin? Does one yell at them as one pulls them out? Does one call them names as they pull them out?

Come on halls, if there was indeed "rudeness" in that interaction I suspect that it was not on the part of either the shoes or the TSO.
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Old Aug 24, 09, 6:05 am
  #185  
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Originally Posted by TSORon View Post
Just how does one "rudely" pull shoes out of a bin? Does one yell at them as one pulls them out? Does one call them names as they pull them out?

Come on halls, if there was indeed "rudeness" in that interaction I suspect that it was not on the part of either the shoes or the TSO.
Very easy. I placed my shoes in the bin as I have countless times without saying a word, and a rude, obnoxious TSO walks over and shouts "shoes on the belt!"

Since the TSO was the only one talking during this exchange, I think it is pretty self-evident who was rude.
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Old Aug 24, 09, 6:06 am
  #186  
 
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins View Post
The problem with making the switch is that The Powers That Be should've just said "we're switching, deal with it". If you ask people whether or not they want to change something in their lives --- myself included --- they're more likely to say "no, I like my life the way it is". Switching can't be a matter of choice.
Uhhh jim, you do realize that you have just advocated for the complete dominance of the citizens by its own government, right? If your theory can be applied to changing from one measurement system to the metric system, it can be applied to just about anything, including the TSA, right jim?

IOW, "we are switching from the MMW system to the WBI systems, deal with it!", that seems to me exactly what you are saying the government should do. Did I misread your intent here? Are you honestly advocating this as how government should deal with its citizens?
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Old Aug 24, 09, 6:13 am
  #187  
 
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Originally Posted by halls120 View Post
Very easy. I placed my shoes in the bin as I have countless times without saying a word, and a rude, obnoxious TSO walks over and shouts "shoes on the belt!"

Since the TSO was the only one talking during this exchange, I think it is pretty self-evident who was rude.
Thats not what you said halls.

That is NOT what is happening in real life. Out of the last four times I've had the misfortune of encountering a TSA checkpoint, twice the TSO rudely pulled my shoes out of the pin and placed them on the belt.
No mention of anyone saying anything. Now you change the story. Why not, it makes you look better and the TSO look worse, right? And you wonder why you have credibility issues?
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Old Aug 24, 09, 7:00 am
  #188  
 
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Originally Posted by halls120 View Post

Since the TSO was the only one talking during this exchange, I think it is pretty self-evident who was rude.

Considering you were not there, how would you know? Why would you make such a statement?

Why not, it makes you look better and the passenger look worse, right? And you wonder why you have credibility issues?
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Old Aug 24, 09, 7:08 am
  #189  
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Originally Posted by TSORon View Post
Thats not what you said halls.
You are correct - in my initial post, I left out the actual exchange at the moat, because I didn't think I had to recount everything that happened. But since you made the rather inane suggestion that shoes could be rude, I then supplied the actual exchange that prompted my post.

Originally Posted by TSORon View Post
And you wonder why you have credibility issues?
I have credibility issues? Really? How so?

This is funny coming from the master of posting incorrect facts on aviation security. I suspect that if the mods were to allow it, we could come up with a "Ron's greatest hits of incorrect facts" quite easily.

Hey Ron, have you boned up on the FFDO program yet? After all, virtually everything you stated several weeks ago on that program was utterly incorrect.
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Old Aug 24, 09, 7:32 am
  #190  
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Originally Posted by TSORon View Post
Uhhh jim, you do realize that you have just advocated for the complete dominance of the citizens by its own government, right? If your theory can be applied to changing from one measurement system to the metric system, it can be applied to just about anything, including the TSA, right jim?

IOW, "we are switching from the MMW system to the WBI systems, deal with it!", that seems to me exactly what you are saying the government should do. Did I misread your intent here? Are you honestly advocating this as how government should deal with its citizens?
Does the phrase "red herring" mean anything to you??
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Old Aug 24, 09, 3:07 pm
  #191  
 
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
Or you (and everyone else) could restrict their flying to the minimum possible while telling the airlines why they have lost most of your business.
I already have done that, a long time ago. Teleconferences & videoconferences have replaced many of the flights of old, simply because of the hassle of dealing with air travel. The TSA + airlines' mistreatment of self-loading cargo truly has made air travel something I dread, which is sad -- I used to love it. So when I do fly it's often on chartered flights.
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Old Aug 24, 09, 3:21 pm
  #192  
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Originally Posted by KRSW View Post
I already have done that, a long time ago. Teleconferences & videoconferences have replaced many of the flights of old, simply because of the hassle of dealing with air travel. The TSA + airlines' mistreatment of self-loading cargo truly has made air travel something I dread, which is sad -- I used to love it. So when I do fly it's often on chartered flights.
I wonder when the airlines will understand they are orchestrating their demise? They have let TSA run roughshod over commercial aviation when all that was needed was reevaluating procedures.

All some group of terr-o-wist need do is float some seemly plausible plot and TSA will pee all over itself trying to stop something that's not going to happen.
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Old Aug 24, 09, 6:05 pm
  #193  
 
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
I wonder when the airlines will understand they are orchestrating their demise? They have let TSA run roughshod over commercial aviation when all that was needed was reevaluating procedures.
I'm not sure any reevaluation in procedure was necessary, let alone this huge uncontrolled (and constitutionally questionable) agency called Homeland Security and everything that has since fallen underneath its umbrella. The threats to this country today are NO different than they were on 10 September 2001. The only difference is that Congress became aware of what they've been told for years by various people. If the existing procedures in place up to 10 September had been followed, we wouldn't be where we are now. Good intentions and knee-jerk reactions are never a good way to run anything, let alone security.

I've said it many times, but I'll restate it again -- Until DHS/TSA are disbanded, there will be NO security on airlines and any other method of transit or other parts of American life they decide to shove their incompetent noses into.
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Old Aug 24, 09, 6:42 pm
  #194  
 
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Originally Posted by TSORon View Post
Uhhh jim, you do realize that you have just advocated for the complete dominance of the citizens by its own government, right? If your theory can be applied to changing from one measurement system to the metric system, it can be applied to just about anything, including the TSA, right jim?

IOW, "we are switching from the MMW system to the WBI systems, deal with it!", that seems to me exactly what you are saying the government should do. Did I misread your intent here? Are you honestly advocating this as how government should deal with its citizens?
Yes, you're misreading my intent. (Long rant follows.)

The whole point of having a representative democracy is that we elect people to make decisions on our behalf. A "pure democracy" only works if the body being governed is small enough, and dedicated enough, to engage with every single issue. That might work in a small town in New Hampshire, but once you get past that level, it's too unwieldy to work effectively. So, we elect people to govern for us, and then we ask them to make all the tons of decisions regarding government services that affect us.

That doesn't mean we like what they decide for us, of course; hence, the whole "petition the government for a redress of grievances" bit. (Not to mention periodic elections.) But that doesn't change the fact that we expect them to act in our best interest.

Sometimes that best interest doesn't sync with public opinion. That's fine. Sometimes the public is right; sometimes the public is wrong. We expect our leaders to exercise judgment beyond simply voting whichever way the latest poll tells them to vote.

I have no doubt that, should the TSA decide to implement MMW/WBI as a mandatory screening technique, the argument they will make will be "this is what's best for you". I don't disagree with the government's right to make that decision. I may disagree with the decision itself, and may petition my elected representatives with my reasons. But that's how it's supposed to work. If several thousand like-minded people petition our representatives with good, substantive reasons for changing TSA, one hopes that those receiving our petition will give careful consideration to those ideas ... and then decide to do the right thing, wherever that decision goes.

I am mindful that a majority of people in this country once thought, at various times, that a slave was only worth 60% of a free man, that women didn't deserve to vote, and that segregating people in public accomodations based on race was perfectly acceptable. Majority rule is not the same as just rule.

I'll never argue that TSA should change because a majority of Americans think they should change. I'll argue that TSA should change because they're doing the wrong things.

Last edited by jkhuggins; Aug 24, 09 at 6:45 pm Reason: typos
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Old Aug 24, 09, 9:05 pm
  #195  
 
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Originally Posted by sbm12 View Post
Does the phrase "red herring" mean anything to you??
I'd prefer that jim cover for his own mistakes. He's usually pretty good at it, does not need assistance.

We have a Representative Republic last I heard, simply because the citizenry IS so large.

If several thousand like-minded people petition our representatives with good, substantive reasons for changing TSA, one hopes that those receiving our petition will give careful consideration to those ideas ... and then decide to do the right thing, wherever that decision goes.
Unfortunately, this is not how it works, at least not with this administration. The health care issue, seems a good part of the nation is against it, but what are our elected representatives saying about that? "A small group of malcontents", "special interests mobilizing", and a few other things. Seems that they are ignoring the will of the people.

Last edited by TSORon; Aug 24, 09 at 9:11 pm Reason: Additions
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