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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   The Science Behind the Liquid Restriction (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/825557-science-behind-liquid-restriction.html)

Wally Bird May 23, 2008 11:06 am


Originally Posted by SMF TSO (Post 9769165)
It might not be the safest way, especially mixing torch lighters and fuels,

Word.

Where would a Dasani bottle containing hydrogen peroxide go then ? After all isn't that Kippie's "worst fear" ? :cool:

eyecue May 23, 2008 11:14 am


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 9753736)
Apparently you stopped at high school chemistry or haven't taken (or taught ;) ) any chemical engineering courses.

You cannot make reasonable explosives by tossing two or more liquids together, unless those liquids are already explosives. However, carrying pre-made nitroglycerin or TATP usually causes premature reaction.

Time (slow mixing) and temperature control are essential to making liquid explosives. I realize your high school chemistry teacher may have omitted this lesson, but there are plenty of other resources available, in addition to the fine compilation on this website.

Got any specific chemical or chemical engineering questions? Feel free to post them here. Don't be shy, use big words. We're here to expose, not obscure, the "liquids threat" for exactly what it is.

Wow are you ever sadly misinformed.

eyecue May 23, 2008 11:18 am


Originally Posted by Flaflyer (Post 9768950)
It's worse than I thought over at Kip's Kubuki Khemistry Kult.

Over on the TSA Blog, under May 9 comments for "So What Exactly Happens To All Of That Stuff?" is a reply that looks to be written by a TSO, our front line in the War on Toothpaste.

Previous poster question (talk is about TSA employees taking confiscated things like perfume home for personal use) "Yes, but do you LEAVE it in the trash can?"

Answer: "Yes I do. I have no desire to get a reprimand or lose my job. Besides it's not mine to take and the reason it's not flying is to prevent someone from bringing explosives on a plane. How do I know that the item in question is safe? The answer is that I don't. We do separate hazmat items from the trash and dispose of them differently but otherwise they go in the dumpster."

AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH. Through screaming for now, continuing:

A TSO can go through the trash and use visual inspection, intuition, ESP, The Force? and determine which bottle is Hazmat and which is water, but they cannot do that with the pax standing there?

AAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHH.

He admits some items ARE Hazmat. Is this the Official Policy of TSA: "The answer is that I don't (know it's safe) but they go in the dumpster"? Did the Patriot Act exempt DHS from EPA regulations? If not, every airport is violating EPA hazardous waste disposal regulations DAILY.

The distinction is what the label says. IF there is a flammable warning on the label it goes into a hazmat tub. End of story. Unmarked bottles or "unknowns" are just generally disposed of along with H2O, toothpaste, shampoo, etc, etc.

ralfp May 23, 2008 11:31 am


Originally Posted by eyecue (Post 9769235)
The distinction is what the label says. IF there is a flammable warning on the label it goes into a hazmat tub. End of story. Unmarked bottles or "unknowns" are just generally disposed of along with H2O, toothpaste, shampoo, etc, etc.

So the TSA trusts the labels when it suits them (i.e. makes their lives easier). Another case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

Shouldn't unknowns be considered hazardous until proven benign?

Flaflyer May 23, 2008 11:35 am

The Innocuous Bomb Terror Plot Revealed
 
"It might not be the safest way, especially mixing torch lighters and fuels,"

Well then you're off the hook. This little storage problem is not EPA's jurisdiction. It's your local fire department's jurisdiction regarding a mind boggling unsafe storage practice in a publicly owned building open to the general public where the unsafe stuff is surrounded by hundreds of people packed like sardines. No problem.

"those which are seemingly innocuous"

I'm a little tight on funds and the Fourth of July is coming up and some fireworks are always nice. Can you tell me which INNOCUOUS stuff from my kitchen I can mix together and make some low level legal fireworks? I hear the Innocuous Bomb is a real good one but Google doesn't have the recipie.

"The distinction is what the label says. IF there is a flammable warning on the label it goes into a hazmat tub."

This is too rich. So all someone has to do is peel off the "Acme Bomb- Danger" label and it's "Well this round black thing with the fuse sticking out does not have a label saying it's dangerous, must be regular trash"? I feel soo much safer already.

"Shouldn't unknowns be considered hazardous until proven benign?" That is EXACTLY what EPA requires the rest of the country to do. Have Kip call the EPA and ask "I have some flammable toxic unstable explosive Hazmat, can I just relabel it "Unknown" and throw it in the regular trash?" Business will save a fortune on disposal costs when this becomes the new official EPA policy.

Can I label my water bottle "I swear this is NOT a bomb-it's 99.99% WATER" and you'll let me keep it? After all, you just go by the label.

cj001f May 23, 2008 11:58 am


Originally Posted by ralfp (Post 9769299)
So the TSA trusts the labels when it suits them (i.e. makes their lives easier). Another case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

Shouldn't unknowns be considered hazardous until proven benign?

That would be too difficult to implement, so we just stick with window dressing

Spiff May 23, 2008 12:00 pm


Originally Posted by eyecue (Post 9769219)
Wow are you ever sadly misinformed.

Feel free to correct me anytime you like. (but do provide some evidence, would you? ;) )

Wally Bird May 23, 2008 12:04 pm


Originally Posted by Spiff (Post 9769468)
Feel free to correct me anytime you like. (but do provide some evidence, would you? ;) )

C'mon Spiff, you know all the "evidence" is Super Secret. Well, except for the stuff on youtube.

erictank May 23, 2008 3:51 pm


Originally Posted by ralfp (Post 9769299)
So the TSA trusts the labels when it suits them (i.e. makes their lives easier). Another case of "Do as I say, not as I do."

Shouldn't unknowns be considered hazardous until proven benign?

^ +1!

As long as it only results in inconvenience and extra out-of-pocket expense for the pax, it's okay. If it would take an extra DIME out of TSA's budget for ACTUAL SAFETY PURPOSES, well, I guess that's just too bad. If someone drops a leaky bottle of bleach into a trash can with a bottle of Windex, well, the screeners and passengers better just suck it up and deal with the poisonous fumes. Let's not even get started on someone dumping an actual WEAPON - an explosive or bio-chem bomb, say - into that convenient receptacle...

[Yoda voice]Safety? Heh! Security? Heh! TSA craves not these things![/Yoda voice]

Hope someone manages to nail them to the wall on either their blatant lies and hypocrisy or their violation of hazmat-disposal practices. At this point, I no longer care which.

txrus May 23, 2008 4:22 pm


Originally Posted by erictank (Post 9770649)
If someone drops a leaky bottle of bleach into a trash can with a bottle of Windex, well, the screeners and passengers better just suck it up and deal with the poisonous fumes.

Given that we, just recently, had the FA who set a fire in the on-board lav because he/she was PO'd at having to work that flight, how long do you think it would take for a PO'd screener to do exactly the same thing to get a day off due to a hazmat terminal dump?

blahter May 24, 2008 6:17 pm


Originally Posted by NoClu (Post 9749284)
New Link to Evolution...
http://www.tsa.gov/blog/2008/05/scie...ind-3-1-1.html
Doesn't look like anything new here.

In one spot they say H202 plus Tang = boom. In another a mysterious "organic material" plus H202 plus tang = boom.

Obviously, the correct plan of action is to ban Tang :D

Boraxo May 28, 2008 10:01 pm

Foxnews has jumped on the propaganda bandwagon (from TSA website link):

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356491,00.html

LessO2 May 28, 2008 10:07 pm


Originally Posted by Boraxo (Post 9792575)
Foxnews has jumped on the propaganda bandwagon (from TSA website link):

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,356491,00.html

Gee, wonder if Fox "News" got a call from a random source named Blip Mawley.



Next time you're feeling inconvenienced because you can't take a bottle of shampoo or soda pop through security, think again. Those restrictions at the gate are there to ensure that you'll reach your destination safe and sound.
If I don't, I will look at why the TSA spent money on new uniforms, badges and swanky parties and retreats before spending any money on new technology, or even simple x-ray machines.


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