The US, do you try to avoid them ???
 

There's a discussion going on here in Europe: Do you avoid the USA as a tourist or in transit or...... because of their politics or standarts?

I met a couple of people who won't do the transit on the Europe-AUS/NZ route in the US anymore because of the immigration procedures. Or they are worried about getting their laptop confiscated and the TSA grubbing their baggage.
That is nothing about bashing, I'm just interested.

By myself, I like to spend my money in a country that don't treat me like a criminal. So, I'm going to Canada or Asia instead.

Buh Bye. Here's your hat, what's your hurry? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

What?
 

I don't look forward to Customs or the TSA, ever.

However: I find it soothing to come back to the US, every time.

And I have found unpleasant 'entry points' in many countries (Europe and Asia, some in the Americas too), but certainly not the US.

That said, I have heard (first-hand) that many Europeans do not appreciate US politics, etc., so for those that feel that way, there is an entire universe willing to open their doors to them; for the most part, what I heard first-hand, is not based on actual experiences but mostly on what they hear on their local news, and well, we know what media propaganda can do to people's minds, especially in lands where the media is government run or supervised.

Enjoy Canada and Asia!

That said, I have heard (first-hand) that many Europeans do not appreciate US politics, etc.,

We'll try to get along without you. Just give us a call if those Huns get too frisky for you..:D

Please continue to follow this thread in the TS/S Forum.
Obscure2k
TravelBuzz Moderator

I give the biggest :td: to Aussie Immigrations.

Folks:

Steady on with the ethnocentric remarks lest this thread gets the bum's rush to OMNIville. Thanks.

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essxjay
TS/S moderator

Sorry, it's just a question..... Don' want to hurt your feelings!
I don't think this is a topic ot the security forum, should not be bannned from travelbuzz.

OK, it is bad english, but in my opinion this is a topic for everybody not only the safaty-interested ones....

Transit in the USA is terrible. Even on the same plane service LHR-LAX-AKL vv you have to clear immigration (full fingerpring and eyescan treatment, visa required if applicable) even though you are held in a secure airside holding pen. Why would I subject myself to this when transit in asia is painless?

If I am not visiting USA (or somewhere that I have to connect through USA) then I try to avoid transitting. Pretty hard on RTW tickets though. I have even routed through asia to Canada to avoid LAX transit treatment. With NZ's new AKL-YVR flight avoiding USA on RTWs has just got easier.

Well, sounds like the same reason why I would avoid LHR transits. I wouldn't choose to transit the US either, but because of the stupid rechecking rules.

To avoid transiting a country because of politics is lame.

To be honest over the past couple of years I have tried to avoid the US (as well as LHR!). Recently I had to do a trip to FLL and Brazil and I had no choice. I was pleasantly surprised that contrary to my last visit everyone I came into contact with was friendly and professional. Even in MIA where I had been told it was a zoo, I found the TSA screeners to be efficient and courteous. Maybe I was a lucky, but that is irrelevant. I feel a lot happier about transiting and visiting the US than I did a year ago.

Anywhere in the U.S. and LHR are a pain for anybody. Dubai is lovely for transit en route to/from Asia and Africa (although a recent C class trip on Emirates led me to the conclusion that EK bidness class is pathetic). If you're going to S. America you're stuck with Canada.

AeroMexico has NRT-TIJ-MEX direct now to for a southern route to Asia to avoid USA transit too. I could see where it might work well for any number of Asian and Latin American business people.

They are also after the San Diego market because transiting LAX is a hassle for them too!

Politics does play a big part in this. Why else would they have those 'stupid rechecking rules'? I'm sure the airlines would rather avoid the hassle. Having to pass immigration even when transiting is also the governments fault.

As for LHR that'd still be a nightmare to transit even if the UK had no immigration controls due to the design of the airport. This should improve when T5 is complete where the plan is to move airlines around so each alliance is in the same terminal whether possible.

Leaving the UK is the worst part though as our carry on rules are more restrictive than the US.

To say the least.... when it comes from a Eutizen, it becomes laughable.....

As a "Eutizen", a term which I object to, by the way, I agree with you that refusing to visit or transit in the US because of politics is stupid and narrow-minded.

However, I think refusing to transit in the US because doing so is a gigantic pain in the @ss is a legitimate complaint, and you can count me among those who will pay good money to avoid having to transit in the US. I welcome alternatives like AeroMexico's TIJ-NRT or Air New Zealand's new YVR-AKL flights. A lot of other posters have cited LHR - I agree that this airport is a nightmare, and use it only when my destination is London. I would not dream of connecting there unless I had no choice. I extend the same argument to the US - though with things being what they are, if I have a choice between transiting in the US on the way to my destination and not going, I would choose not to go.

The reason for this has nothing to do with politics, but rather with policies, namely the policies of US Customs and Border Patrol and of the TSA. Your view may differ on this, but if I have the choice between spending my vacation euros in a country that fingerprints and mugshots me like a common criminal simply because I had the temerity to show up at one of its airports, where I must leave my luggage unlocked for "security" reasons making it easy for all-and-sundry to pilfer from it, being yelled at like a Marines recruit on the first day of boot camp by TSAers too stupid to spell their own name while dawdling their way through screening passengers, power-tripping all the way or spending them in a country that has relatively easy entry procedures, allows me to keep my luggage locked and has security screeners who are polite and courteous, and best of all, efficient - well, you'll have to forgive me for choosing the second option.

Let's not forget that there is also a certain element of risk in trying to enter the US. US immigration inspectors can turn you away for any reason, and you have no recourse. There are regular reports of people (usually of Middle Eastern origin) who happen to share a name with known persons of interest, being detained for days and interrogated before being deported, even after their innocence has been proven. And then there are cases like that of Maher Arar. I may not have much to fear because I am a law-abiding citizen, but rather than put myself at the mercy of an out-of-control bureaucracy, I again choose to go elsewhere.

I used to live in the US and still have very good friends there, and there are a number of places in the US that I would love to see or see again, but at the moment I am simply not willing to put up with the hassle and indignity of the current entry process to the US.

If you want to want to see this as a protest against US politics, then fine, see it as such. Me, I see it as voting with my pocketbook. When conditions in a certain place are such that visiting there becomes a chore rather than a pleasure, it's time to go elsewhere in the hopes that the absence of tourists (and their money) will bring about a change.

No doubt, it is a PITA.

No doubt, the pendulum has reversed from ten years ago when traveling through EU was a huge PITA for Americans. I forget what they were but the secuity screeners that used to be in EU, ITA? were complete gems(sarcasm) as well. The truth is that it has all become very differnet and for the time, the US is the stoopid one. I hope that it gets back to a level playing field and it is universal. The biggest problem are the variences, moreso than the policies.

Yes, let's hope that we will soon see a level playing field again. However, I fear that this level playing field will be the lowest common denominator, i.e. a race to the bottom, rather than something that is actually in the interest of travellers.

Can you elaborate why "10 years ago traveling through the EU was a huge PITA for Americans"?

My American and other friends who visit very often tell me (and told me 10 years ago also) how easy it is to travel to and in the European Union. No forms to fill in (in most countries), no or very few questions asked, just a quick passport stamp and 9 out of 10 times you just walk through the green channel at customs.

This is very different from the treatment an average EU tourist gets in the USA.

I haven't been back to the USA since my last trip there in Jan 2005. And I don't miss it really now that I'm in and around Europe and Asia most of the time.

No, i havent stopped coming to the US as a tourist, ive already booked again for september this year. When i did my last trip i found getting out of the UK more painful than getting into the US. Part of that is due to the stupid rules in the UK and part of it is the stupid secondary screening we have to go through in our own country to get to the US.
There are much better countries to travel to and from, but i enjoy the US too much to stop going.
Ive not had a bad experience at immigration for many years and whilst i find the US Visit procedures stupid i just switch off from it.
Im prepared to put up with the hassle to enjoy the vacation.
If i wasnt staying in the US though i would definately avoid transiting as there can be no justification for making you clear immigration for a 2 hour stopover.

Dubai ain't lovely for everybody. A friend of mine, a real estate developer who travels back/forth to Dubai regularly always gets grilled by DXB immigration for having many TLV stamps in his passport. Now he just asks TLV immigration to not stamp his passport and he acquired a second passport. He can't always use it however as he needs the visas in his main one when he makes multi-country trips.

I also loathe customs and immigration at a country where even having trace amounts of illegal substances with a low standard of proof and which may or may not be yours can lead to devastating consequences.

The free market will ultimately decided.

It is a FACT that less tourist are coming to the US. Last I head this was costing the USA $17B in direct annual costs. I believe the indirect costs (people trading to what is familiar, reduction on legal 'smart' immigrants, etc.) are much much higher.

As a USA citizen I can understand people not wanting to get finger printed, time delayed, etc. when USA citizens do not have to do the same at their countries. I could understand their vote with their pocket book (i.e. choosing not to come here).

In theory now the USA should accept this feedback and perhaps change [I don't think this will happen for a while...]

We booked a FRWSTAR2 trip ex-YYZ for April. It completely avoids routing through any U.S. airports. I hold an Uncle Sam Blue Passport but not my GF, hence we are avoiding for her sake.

10 years ago, I was living in Europe and rarely, if ever, even got an entry stamp at FRA. You would slow down a bit as you hit immigration and just hold your passport up and were just waved through.

I think the issue the OP is concerned about isn't politics as much as the results of politics. There's also a basic faciliites design issue as well.

Most airports around the world have an entire section of a terminal or whole terminal(s) just for international flights. That's because in the vast majority of countries you go to, there is an exit program in place - you go through outbound immigration before going to your plane. Thus, there's a big part of the airport where, for all intents and purposes, passengers are in no-man's land. They are outside immigration, either arriving or departing. Thus, if you're flying from the US to a non-EU country in Europe or someplace in the Middle East or Africa, you can make a connection without having to deal with immigration/customs in the transfer country at all.

The US does not have an exiting immigration program. Thus, there is no section/terminal at the airports that are international-only, in the no-man's land. I know in the past you could transfer through - really popular for Europe-Latin America routings - but it was never a perfect system because you literally were corraled for the period of the layover. However, that's been done away with, to the detriment of the airlines. If you want to transit here - and I did so myself a couple of years ago, going from Mexico City to Sao Paulo and connecting in Miami - it's a pain in the .... If you're lucky you won't have to reclaim your luggage and recheck - this is dependent upon the procedures and "security" arraingments at your origin airport - but you still have to fill out US customs forms, stand in line, go through the entire entry procudure, having your carry-on luggage subject to secondary inspection, then you clear customs and have to stand in the TSA lines to get back through security to get to your departing gate.

I would not wish that on anyone, even if they have a visa or are from a visa waiver country. Entering the US is a hassle - I've had close to 100 international trips and while I've only been secondaried at Customs once, you never know when it will happen. BICE agents are sometimes very rude, the "helpers" yelling at you in lines, etc. I don't quite dread it - Dulles is excellent for me and I've never had a problem there but Miami and New York are totally different subjects!

If you're only here for a couple of hours, just to make a plane connection, it is a major hassle to go through and I think it should be avoided. Connect through Toronto or Mexico City or somewhere else.

And to the people who threw darts at the OP - I don't think you quite understood his point. His main point was not to visit the US for business/pleasure, just to transit through to get from one country to the next. Even I, a US citizen, will avoid that hassle.