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-   -   Why do US Customs search laptops? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/502528-why-do-us-customs-search-laptops.html)

GUWonder Dec 12, 2005 1:34 pm


Originally Posted by FWAAA
Uhh, SPN Lifer is a former AUSA in Saipan. I'm certain that he is, in fact, a lawyer. ;)

Lawyers are not perfect. Even AUSAs and USAs -- useful term??? :D -- are not. (My statement is not intended to be be read as a commentary on prior posts, as the assertion herein is certainly not such a commentary.)

docr775 Dec 12, 2005 1:46 pm

The discussion started with the TSA personnel looking through the laptop. Although, I am not sure of the legality of them looking through your files without a warrant, I can tell you that the laptop has to be turned on and it has to show functionality. Why? A low level bomb can be hidden in a laptop. Plastic explosives can be hidden in the battery packs of the computer and sometimes the x-ray machine cannot tell the difference. That is why the laptops sometimes are being wiped with the round tissue that is chemically treated to turn color when plastic explosive residues are found. On the ground it will have the enough punch to blow me up and put a two foot hole in the ground. In the air, placed in the middle of plane, especially around the exit seats, where the fuel tanks are, it can vaporize the plane.

So, although some of the people who do the searches do push the limits, their job is to make sure that you get back on the ground safely so you can argue some more about what civil liberties they have infringed. Happy flying!!!!!

FWAAA Dec 12, 2005 2:03 pm


Originally Posted by docr775
The discussion started with the TSA personnel looking through the laptop.

We must not be reading the same thread, because it's got nothing to do with the TSA - it's all about a Customs officer's fishing expedition by browsing the OP's computer files.


Originally Posted by docr775
Although, I am not sure of the legality of them looking through your files without a warrant

That's been covered in this thread. At the border, there's no need for a warrant for a search.


Originally Posted by docr775
I can tell you that the laptop has to be turned on and it has to show functionality. Why? A low level bomb can be hidden in a laptop. Plastic explosives can be hidden in the battery packs of the computer and sometimes the x-ray machine cannot tell the difference. That is why the laptops sometimes are being wiped with the round tissue that is chemically treated to turn color when plastic explosive residues are found. On the ground it will have the enough punch to blow me up and put a two foot hole in the ground. In the air, placed in the middle of plane, especially around the exit seats, where the fuel tanks are, it can vaporize the plane.

So, although some of the people who do the searches do push the limits, their job is to make sure that you get back on the ground safely so you can argue some more about what civil liberties they have infringed. Happy flying!!!!!

Customs wasn't looking for a bomb.

Anyway, the rest of your post is at odds with the way the TSA works. SOP is for the TSA to call the police/bomb squad whenever it suspects an explosive, not to turn on electonics to see if they go "boom."

PTravel Dec 12, 2005 2:06 pm


Originally Posted by FWAAA
Uhh, SPN Lifer is a former AUSA in Saipan. I'm certain that he is, in fact, a lawyer. ;)

I'm speechless.

And I stand by my analysis.

Doppy Dec 12, 2005 2:23 pm


Originally Posted by docr775
The discussion started with the TSA personnel looking through the laptop. Although, I am not sure of the legality of them looking through your files without a warrant, I can tell you that the laptop has to be turned on and it has to show functionality.

A bomb could still be hidden in a functioning laptop.

Regardless, turning it on to show functionality and snooping around at the files on the laptop are two different things.


So, although some of the people who do the searches do push the limits, their job is to make sure that you get back on the ground safely so you can argue some more about what civil liberties they have infringed. Happy flying!!!!!
As mentioned above, we're talking about customs, not the TSA.

Regardless, I hardly doubt that having "immoral materials" - even a lot of it - is going to bring down an airliner.

Deeg Dec 12, 2005 2:55 pm


Originally Posted by PTravel
Customs can look at whatever it wants. It cannot seize "immoral," but otherwise non-obscene and protected speech.

What do you think about pamphlets advocating the overthrow of the US government? They are also specifically banned by 19 USC 1305.

Deeg Dec 12, 2005 2:57 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder
Lawyers are not perfect.

I nominate GUWonder for FT understatement of the year!! :D

canuck_in_pa Dec 12, 2005 3:20 pm

I went through the experience at Canadian Customs a month.

The officer made me log in to Windows and then did a quick search for pictures, with me present.

He didn't notice the linux partition nor my encrypted directory (empty at the time). Changing the file extensions would have screwed up his search too.

They managed to catch a child pornographer the week before with this basic search. Amazing.

I filed an incident report with our security department when I got back.

PTravel Dec 12, 2005 3:53 pm


Originally Posted by Deeg
What do you think about pamphlets advocating the overthrow of the US government? They are also specifically banned by 19 USC 1305.

What about them? Sedition laws have been around forever and are constitutional. Courts have always distinguished between speech as expression and speech as conduct. There are a whole range of laws that restrict speech-as-conduct, ranging from publication of the sailing times of troop ships, to defamation, to unfair competition laws.

Speech that is "immoral," but not otherwise illegal (because, e.g., it constitutes copyright infringement, obscenity, defamation, etc.) is what is known in Constitutional jurisprudence as "pure speech." Pure speech can only be regulated when the regulation is content-neutral, the least restrictive possible, and is done to further a compelling state interest (all of these are legal terms of art). Seizure of expressive material on the ground that it is "immoral" doesn't comport with the Constitutional test established for government regulation of speech and, of course, the non-legal-term-of-art "immoral" is impermissibly vague.

Deeg Dec 12, 2005 4:01 pm


Originally Posted by PTravel
What about them? Sedition laws have been around forever and are constitutional. Courts have always distinguished between speech as expression and speech as conduct.

Ah, I see. And, don't worry, I wasn't asking if you agree with their sentiment...just your opinion of their constitutionality. :)

PTravel Dec 12, 2005 4:05 pm


Originally Posted by Deeg
Ah, I see. And, don't worry, I wasn't asking if you agree with their sentiment...just your opinion of their constitutionality. :)

I'm focused solely on the "immorality" ban contained in the statute. My objection to it is solely, and exclusively, Constitutional in character.

PatrickHenry1775 Dec 12, 2005 6:52 pm


Originally Posted by PTravel
I'm focused solely on the "immorality" ban contained in the statute. My objection to it is solely, and exclusively, Constitutional in character.

"Immorality" as a standard sure invites a void for vagueness challenge.

SPN Lifer Dec 12, 2005 11:48 pm

There are some interesting points in this thread.
 
Thank you, MSY-MSP, for your very helpful Post #57 above. Even with a plethora of password-protected files, I was obviously far too blasé about the potential waiver of the attorney-client privilege (not knowing whether the inquirer took similar precautions). You've given me some good ideas for interrogs, :) and I'll be sending you a PM about your official disclosure limitation form.

Kremmen and GUWonder have some helpful thoughts about minimizing content on a laptop and transmitting via encrypted e-mail (though that is like sending a postcard viewable by any ISP or intelligence agency with superb cryptologic capabilities) or removable hard drives, respectively. Some find steganography useful. ;) I got a bit of training from the DoJ CCIPS (Computer Crime and Intellectual Property Section) as an AUSA, but have never called a CART examiner as a witness.

I don't disagree with your constitutional analysis, PTravel, as a general matter. I was just pointing out, however, that reasonableness of a customs search under the Fourth Amendment is practically unlimited at the border. You are free to cite some First Amendment cases defining the outer limits of such inspections if it is that important to you, but border searches by the sovereign were a long-standing practice at the time of the Constitution and not significantly limited by it. I think we are talking past each other, and would both like the other to be our "temporary law clerk." :)

mbstone Dec 12, 2005 11:49 pm


Originally Posted by bpratt
It is still possible to have software or hardware designs on a laptop that are ITAR controlled, but if you're working on ITAR controlled non-commercially available products you should know it. Then what you do is get what's called a Carnet from Dept of Commerce, to allow export of this controlled material. Its a real pain to have to deal with the paperwork for this, or anything else to do with ITAR. I carried a Carnet for my notebook PC for a number of years, and can't ever remember encountering a Customs agent who seemed to know or care what it was for.

I asked the person giving the ITAR seminar if there was such a thing as a carnet for ITAR information and he claimed there is not. Once your laptop with the ITAR information leaves the country, it's immaterial whether or not you bring it back, you've already exported the information.

SPN Lifer Dec 12, 2005 11:56 pm

There are some interesting Ninth Circuit drug cases about whether flights or voyages between two points in the U.S. that cross international waters, such as California to Hawaii, are subject to warrantless customs inspections, as well as similar flights between Hawaii and Guam -- the latter complicated because it is a territory. I seem to recall that flights between Florida and New York were treated differently, at least before a Ninth Circuit en banc decision.

I've never had a First Amendment customs case. The CNMI controls its own customs borders, see 48 U.S.C. § 1801 note, as does Guam.


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