Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Travel&Dining > Travel Safety/Security > Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate
Reload this Page >

Dispute over Legal Protections for CBP Officers at Canadian NEXUS Enrollment Centers

Dispute over Legal Protections for CBP Officers at Canadian NEXUS Enrollment Centers

Old Jul 22, 22, 2:07 pm
  #1  
Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, Travel Tools, California, Los Angeles; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Original Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: VNY | BUR | LAX
Programs: AAdvantage | MileagePlus
Posts: 18,274
Dispute over Legal Protections for CBP Officers at Canadian NEXUS Enrollment Centers

Dispute with U.S. keeps Canada's Nexus offices closed
Nexus enrolment centres in Canada, shuttered temporarily during the COVID-19 pandemic, have remained closed for weeks longer than expected due to an ongoing dispute with the United States over legal protections for U.S. staff at the centre, including the ability of American customs officers to carry firearms.

***
These discussions are focused on clarifying legal protections for US CBP (Customs and Border Protection) officers while they are working in Canadian enrolment centres. Until that time, enrolment centres in Canada will continue to be closed, said CBSA spokesperson Sandra Boudreau in a written statement.

***
The Canadian government limits the presence of armed foreign officers on Canadian soil. A federal law passed in 2017 allows U.S. officers to carry sidearms if theyre working in an environment where CBSA officers are usually armed, however, that is usually not the case in Nexus enrolment centres.

***
TWA884 is offline  
Old Jul 22, 22, 2:39 pm
  #2  
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Posts: 111
I have never understood why CBP agents need to be armed unless they are working in the field (i.e, trying to arrest someone).

I've also never understood why the people who check passports in the airport must be fully uniformed law enforcement officers...It affects the hiring because it eliminates a whole swathe of potential candidates who might otherwise have the communication/language/social skills needed in such a position.
OSSYULYYZ, Spiff, resolute and 4 others like this.
ewoo is offline  
Old Jul 22, 22, 3:59 pm
  #3  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 100,379
I hope the Canadians stick to their guns on this gun matter and dont cave to USG/CBP pressure.

If the Canadians dont feel their own people need guns in such circumstances, then they most certainly shouldnt allow foreign agents to have them there either.

This is just another one of the many pushes to allow more Americans abroad to carry guns abroad.

Last edited by GUWonder; Jul 22, 22 at 4:05 pm
GUWonder is offline  
Old Jul 26, 22, 11:01 pm
  #4  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hawaii
Programs: Starbucks Gold :-)
Posts: 716
Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
I hope the Canadians stick to their guns on this gun matter and dont cave to USG/CBP pressure.

If the Canadians dont feel their own people need guns in such circumstances, then they most certainly shouldnt allow foreign agents to have them there either.

This is just another one of the many pushes to allow more Americans abroad to carry guns abroad.
Is it such a big deal to allow them to be armed - they already are at Preclearance facilities.
MDTyKe is offline  
Old Jul 26, 22, 11:14 pm
  #5  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: statusless these days
Posts: 20,884
Originally Posted by MDTyKe View Post
Is it such a big deal to allow them to be armed - they already are at Preclearance facilities.
Not that I've seen

At any rate, I expect the U.S. (or what becomes of it) to have a lot less clout in as little as 3 years.
YVR Cockroach is offline  
Old Jul 26, 22, 11:15 pm
  #6  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 100,379
Originally Posted by MDTyKe View Post
Is it such a big deal to allow them to be armed - they already are at Preclearance facilities.
Armed foreign agents with immunity benefits is the kind of thing I would rather see less of than more of — especially when they are in roles that involve daily dealing with the host country’s civilian public on grounds not protected by the relevant multilateral conventions for diplomatic and consular immunities.
kevino, TPACjv, chollie and 4 others like this.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Jul 27, 22, 12:03 am
  #7  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Hawaii
Programs: Starbucks Gold :-)
Posts: 716
Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
Armed foreign agents with immunity benefits is the kind of thing I would rather see less of than more of — especially when they are in roles that involve daily dealing with the host country’s civilian public on grounds not protected by the relevant multilateral conventions for diplomatic and consular immunities.
CBP officers under the Preclearance Act 2016 are allowed to be armed in Canada. The issue, as I understand it, is that CBP want this extended to NEXUS offices, where they are present.

Generally speaking, individuals have a lot more rights in Preclearance, ie. you can simply withdraw your request to entry, and refuse to be searched (things that are difficult at a POE). I don't think CBP officers in Preclearance are afforded diplomatic immunity in the classic sense, but rather are afforded protections under the specific agreements themselves.

See also: https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/t.../index-en.aspx
chollie, TWA884 and seawolf like this.

Last edited by MDTyKe; Jul 27, 22 at 12:14 am
MDTyKe is offline  
Old Jul 27, 22, 7:49 am
  #8  
Original Member
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,154
Originally Posted by MDTyKe View Post
CBP officers under the Preclearance Act 2016 are allowed to be armed in Canada. The issue, as I understand it, is that CBP want this extended to NEXUS offices, where they are present.

Generally speaking, individuals have a lot more rights in Preclearance, ie. you can simply withdraw your request to entry, and refuse to be searched (things that are difficult at a POE). I don't think CBP officers in Preclearance are afforded diplomatic immunity in the classic sense, but rather are afforded protections under the specific agreements themselves.

See also: https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/t.../index-en.aspx
Here's the treaty. Firearms are referred to as "Regulated items."
https://www.treaty-accord.gc.ca/text...aspx?id=105453
chollie likes this.
seawolf is online now  
Old Jul 27, 22, 12:46 pm
  #9  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 100,379
Originally Posted by MDTyKe View Post
CBP officers under the Preclearance Act 2016 are allowed to be armed in Canada. The issue, as I understand it, is that CBP want this extended to NEXUS offices, where they are present.
I was against that even when it was a bill there. From 2016:

Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
The text of the bill is really worth reading to know what the US can and will be allowed to do in Canada under Canadian law.

It's too bad that Canada ends up being more and more of a US kiss-up on "security".
US CBP checkpoint on Canadian soil

And my position on that is the same even after it cleared into law.
chollie and pilot007 like this.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 10, 22, 5:50 am
  #10  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: From ORK, live LCY
Programs: IHG Gold, BA Silver, EI Silver, HH Silver, Accor Silver, ABP, Seigneur des Horaires des Mucci
Posts: 13,596
I also see no logical need for officers in enrolment centres to be armed.

And as for preclearance, USCBP officers in DUB and SNN manage fine without guns. Their agreement and section 5 (7) of the the Aviation (Preclearance) Act 2009 specifically states they have no right to carry them.
chollie and GUWonder like this.
stifle is online now  
Old Sep 10, 22, 4:49 pm
  #11  
Original Member
 
Join Date: May 1998
Location: NYC
Programs: AA 2MM, Bonvoy LTT, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 14,154
Originally Posted by stifle View Post
I also see no logical need for officers in enrolment centres to be armed.

And as for preclearance, USCBP officers in DUB and SNN manage fine without guns. Their agreement and section 5 (7) of the the Aviation (Preclearance) Act 2009 specifically states they have no right to carry them.
Are CBP resources in Ireland airside or landside?
seawolf is online now  
Old Sep 10, 22, 7:13 pm
  #12  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Programs: statusless these days
Posts: 20,884
Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
I was against that even when it was a bill there. From 2016:



US CBP checkpoint on Canadian soil

And my position on that is the same even after it cleared into law.
Those who play Civilization VI will realise what the term suzerain means.
GUWonder and mlbcard like this.
YVR Cockroach is offline  
Old Sep 11, 22, 7:33 am
  #13  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: From ORK, live LCY
Programs: IHG Gold, BA Silver, EI Silver, HH Silver, Accor Silver, ABP, Seigneur des Horaires des Mucci
Posts: 13,596
Originally Posted by seawolf View Post
Are CBP resources in Ireland airside or landside?
Airside. They show you a photo of your checked baggage at the desk and you confirm it's yours.
stifle is online now  
Old Sep 12, 22, 3:06 am
  #14  
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Watchlisted by the prejudiced, en route to purgatory
Programs: Just Say No to Fleecing and Blacklisting
Posts: 100,379
Originally Posted by stifle View Post
Airside. They show you a photo of your checked baggage at the desk and you confirm it's yours.
There are also CBP employees -- some of whom work CBP Preclearance, but others who do not -- who can be on "land-side" assignments in the country. At least IME they too don't go around the country armed with firearms.

Originally Posted by YVR Cockroach View Post
Those who play Civilization VI will realise what the term suzerain means.
Never played that video game, but suzerainty is indeed a concept that comes to mind for such international dynamics too.
chollie likes this.
GUWonder is offline  
Old Sep 13, 22, 5:51 pm
  #15  
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Programs: EY
Posts: 722
Originally Posted by stifle View Post
Airside. They show you a photo of your checked baggage at the desk and you confirm it's yours.
In their (limited defense) if you are airside you know the other person isn't armed. That isn't the case at an airport enrollment center--nor at a land center in the US, but they are armed there. I don't understand why they were fine with not being armed prior to 2019 though and not now.
chollie likes this.
xobile is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread