Constitution-Free Zone Alive & Well!
Jan 23, 2018, 7:15 pm
#31
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Jan 23, 2018, 8:01 pm
#32
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Jan 23, 2018, 9:01 pm
#33
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Jan 23, 2018, 9:05 pm
#34
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Hypothetical situation: You, a citizen of the United States of America, are traveling on a public road. You encounter a random checkpoint where officers are demanding proof of you citizenship. So what proof is acceptable?
In my case, I don't know what I'd offer. My driver's license? That just shows that my home state issued me a driver's license. I do not travel with my Social Security card because the risk of identity theft is high if my purse or wallet were stolen.
I also do not travel within the US with my passport, my birth certificate or marriage license which shows why my last name is different on my driver's license than it is on my birth certificate.
My word on it? Clearly that is not the case, or nobody would have to present papers.
I am not arguing the point that it is against the law to be here without proper documentation. I am asking how everyone here would prove their US citizenship if they ran into a random roadblock tonight in their automobile or while riding a bus, train, etc. within US borders.
In my case, I don't know what I'd offer. My driver's license? That just shows that my home state issued me a driver's license. I do not travel with my Social Security card because the risk of identity theft is high if my purse or wallet were stolen.
I also do not travel within the US with my passport, my birth certificate or marriage license which shows why my last name is different on my driver's license than it is on my birth certificate.
My word on it? Clearly that is not the case, or nobody would have to present papers.
I am not arguing the point that it is against the law to be here without proper documentation. I am asking how everyone here would prove their US citizenship if they ran into a random roadblock tonight in their automobile or while riding a bus, train, etc. within US borders.
Jan 23, 2018, 9:18 pm
#35
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Fourth Amendment
I'm not an expert in immigration law, so I'm hardly the last word on the subject. However, as a general proposition, LEOs cannot detain anyone with a reasonable, articulable suspicion, and cannot arrest anyone without probable cause. I would be shocked if a court has held that immigration status is an exception to the limitation on government power contained in the Constitution.
Jan 23, 2018, 9:40 pm
#36
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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Fourth Amendment
I'm not an expert in immigration law, so I'm hardly the last word on the subject. However, as a general proposition, LEOs cannot detain anyone with a reasonable, articulable suspicion, and cannot arrest anyone without probable cause. I would be shocked if a court has held that immigration status is an exception to the limitation on government power contained in the Constitution.
Fourth Amendment
I'm not an expert in immigration law, so I'm hardly the last word on the subject. However, as a general proposition, LEOs cannot detain anyone with a reasonable, articulable suspicion, and cannot arrest anyone without probable cause. I would be shocked if a court has held that immigration status is an exception to the limitation on government power contained in the Constitution.
https://www.aclu.org/other/constitut...le-border-zone
Jan 23, 2018, 9:43 pm
#37
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The issue here isn't whether the woman who overstayed her visa should be able to stay in the US regardless. Obviously, she shouldn't. The issue is whether the government can demand, in a coercive context and without a reasonable suspicion, much less probable cause, proof that someone hasn't committed a crime. LEOs are free to ask whatever they want. In "identify states," if you are asked by a LEO who you are, you have to tell them. And that's all. No one is under any legal obligation to answer any LEO's questions. When I'm stopped by a traffic cop, I never respond to the question, "Do you know how fast you were going?" (and no one else should, either). I'm not up on the latest court rulings on inland immigration checkpoints. There's one I pass quite frequently on the 405 between San Diego and Los Angeles. I've never been stopped -- when I drive up, they say, "Good afternoon," and wave me through as soon as they see I'm a white male in a suit. However, if they did stop me and ask, "Are you a US citizen?" my only response would be, "Am I being detained?"
The prohibitions on the government exercise of power in the Bill of Rights are not absolute and, over the past 2 centuries or so, the courts have construed these amendment to allow certain limited exceptions. These exceptions are grudgingly granted and subject to specific factual tests. For example, the 4th Amendment has been construed to allow "administrative searches" under certain conditions and certain restrictions in the absence of probable cause or a warrant. TSA is a living embodiment of the "administrative search" exception. I am aware, however, of no exception to the 4th Amendment that requires anyone to prove they have not committed the crime of illegal presence in the US or face arrest. Are you?
Jan 23, 2018, 9:44 pm
#38
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Jan 23, 2018, 10:24 pm
#39
Join Date: Sep 2016
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None that I know of but if an Immigration Officer suspects you are not a citizen and you do not have any documents or refuse to produce documents they can take you into custody until your status is confirmed. That's why I said that showing ID might be the better choice if push comes to shove in some situations. And the real point is that visitors are required to have their documents while in country.
Regardless, we are not talking about a U.S. citizen in this case but a person who ignored our laws and overstayed their visa.
Regardless, we are not talking about a U.S. citizen in this case but a person who ignored our laws and overstayed their visa.
Since I rarely carry any identification besides a driver's license when traveling domestically, would CBP just detain me indefinitely, or would they eventually deport me? How would they decide where to deport me to?
Jan 24, 2018, 12:22 am
#40
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Quite a few U.S. Citizens with Latino names or browner skin face the same sort of attention.
Since I rarely carry any identification besides a driver's license when traveling domestically, would CBP just detain me indefinitely, or would they eventually deport me? How would they decide where to deport me to?
Since I rarely carry any identification besides a driver's license when traveling domestically, would CBP just detain me indefinitely, or would they eventually deport me? How would they decide where to deport me to?
Jan 24, 2018, 1:11 am
#41
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 288
None that I know of but if an Immigration Officer suspects you are not a citizen and you do not have any documents or refuse to produce documents they can take you into custody until your status is confirmed. That's why I said that showing ID might be the better choice if push comes to shove in some situations. And the real point is that visitors are required to have their documents while in country.
Regardless, we are not talking about a U.S. citizen in this case but a person who ignored our laws and overstayed their visa.
Regardless, we are not talking about a U.S. citizen in this case but a person who ignored our laws and overstayed their visa.
Jan 24, 2018, 3:22 am
#42
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I haven't given up anything. I don't think you fully understand the original topic of this thread.
I never stated that a citizen has to carry ID. I said that visitors to this country are required to carry certain documents. I did say that in some cases it might be the lesser of evils to show some form of identity. In other words I would present ID before going to jail. The law allows a CBP officer to determine citizenship, how they do that is usually just a question but if they question your status you can be taken into custody until your status is determined.
You did state that it is a violation of the constitution to provide ID. Since we are talking about in the border zone I have to question the accuracy of that statement.
I never stated that a citizen has to carry ID. I said that visitors to this country are required to carry certain documents. I did say that in some cases it might be the lesser of evils to show some form of identity. In other words I would present ID before going to jail. The law allows a CBP officer to determine citizenship, how they do that is usually just a question but if they question your status you can be taken into custody until your status is determined.
You did state that it is a violation of the constitution to provide ID. Since we are talking about in the border zone I have to question the accuracy of that statement.
When I or my travel party members -- some of who may not be perceived as being European-Americans (whether they are or are not) -- have been subject to this kind of "border enforcement" show by US DHS employees on my US domestic trips, my response is sometimes something akin to this: "As a US citizen, I'm not required to carry ID to have my rights as a free US citizen respected by those with a legal obligation to respect my rights as a US citizen within the US, and it may be a federal crime for federal government employees to willfully violate the constitutional rights of US citizens.".
Jan 24, 2018, 4:10 am
#43
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If I'm not mistaken visitors to the U.S. are required to carry their Passport and Visa documents. 18 year old and older Green Card holders are required to carry their Green cards. Almost all other people have something with their name on it, Drivers License, SSN card, Medicare card of some other form of possible ID should a situation present that producing ID beats the available alternatives.
The underlying issue of uncontrolled, undocumented immigration will be painful to some but is fully justified and that is all this officer was doing, enforcing the law.
The underlying issue of uncontrolled, undocumented immigration will be painful to some but is fully justified and that is all this officer was doing, enforcing the law.
Jan 24, 2018, 4:57 am
#44
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Israel/United States
Posts: 1,234
Most respondents are complaining about having to provide proof of citizenship and the fact that we are not required, by the Constitution to carry such. That is NOT what the OP said. Here, I'll repeat it, with emphasis added by me.
" They instructed each person to present “a U.S. identification or a passport with a stamp of entrance,”
A US identification can be anything--a driver's license, a medicaid or medicare card, a food stamp card, a credit card etc.etc. ALL of these documents are only issued to those who are LEGALLY in the US. --try to open a bank account now a days. --or try to be an illegal and get a credit card. So, holders of these cards are either legal, or they are experts at forgery. Now, who can honestly say that they are going to be traveling with NOTHING that has their name on it!
" They instructed each person to present “a U.S. identification or a passport with a stamp of entrance,”
A US identification can be anything--a driver's license, a medicaid or medicare card, a food stamp card, a credit card etc.etc. ALL of these documents are only issued to those who are LEGALLY in the US. --try to open a bank account now a days. --or try to be an illegal and get a credit card. So, holders of these cards are either legal, or they are experts at forgery. Now, who can honestly say that they are going to be traveling with NOTHING that has their name on it!
Jan 24, 2018, 5:48 am
#45
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" They instructed each person to present “a U.S. identification or a passport with a stamp of entrance,”
A US identification can be anything--a driver's license, a medicaid or medicare card, a food stamp card, a credit card etc.etc. ALL of these documents are only issued to those who are LEGALLY in the US. --try to open a bank account now a days. --or try to be an illegal and get a credit card. So, holders of these cards are either legal, or they are experts at forgery. Now, who can honestly say that they are going to be traveling with NOTHING that has their name on it!
A US identification can be anything--a driver's license, a medicaid or medicare card, a food stamp card, a credit card etc.etc. ALL of these documents are only issued to those who are LEGALLY in the US. --try to open a bank account now a days. --or try to be an illegal and get a credit card. So, holders of these cards are either legal, or they are experts at forgery. Now, who can honestly say that they are going to be traveling with NOTHING that has their name on it!