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MOBILE Flight Deck Secondary Barrier Galley Cart System

MOBILE Flight Deck Secondary Barrier Galley Cart System

Old Feb 10, 2019, 3:27 pm
  #181  
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Originally Posted by nancypants
We don’t have that here

maybe take it up with your politicians and media, rather than adding to project fear???
Sadly, fear sells -- s people peddling the latest special magic rock use it.
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 3:53 pm
  #182  
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Originally Posted by nancypants
I trust them enough
Gotcha. Pilots tell me that American Airlines flight attendant Bette Nash is still defending unlocked cockpits today with drink-carts. She'll be turning 84 this year:

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Old Feb 10, 2019, 3:57 pm
  #183  
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Originally Posted by MacLeanBarrier
Gotcha. Pilots tell me that American Airlines flight attendant Bette Nash is still defending unlocked cockpits today with drink-carts. She'll be turning 84 this year:

https://youtu.be/SyCyM2oJq74
S? There are always two FAs behind the cart. You like hyperbole and seem not to want to engage in a factual discussion.
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 4:06 pm
  #184  
 
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Originally Posted by MacLeanBarrier
I've already met and meeting with more House and Senate offices to explain that the "wire mesh" 12-cable unit is not cost effective--which why most have been removed due to drink-carts and roller-bags always running into and breaking them. Too much downtime was a result due to the need to call 2 contractors to fix the 12-cable barrier and anchor it back into the bulkheads.

My barrier cart rolls off with a new one to replace it after landing--zero downtime.

The 12-cable system is also dangerous due to being exposed to the general passengers. It can be sabotaged with a simple metal tool or super-glue.

My barrier cart has an disturb-circuit alarm after it's stowed. It also collapses back into the special cart, stows and locks away with the standard drink-carts, and camoflages with them. Impossible to sabotage.

Finally, the 12-cable "wire mesh" system cannot stop firearms or synthetic opiod attacks with fentanyl or carfentanil. My barrier is bullet-proof and seals the forward galley.
Forgive me if my questions are stupid -- but where would it be stored with the standard drink cart? I do not hang out in the galley a lot, but there seems to be little room.

About the synthetic opoid scenario -- Is no one going to notice a person putting on a personal respirator? On my last flights (international) the FAs were very vigilant when the carts were out, watching for any movement.

If someone starts shooting without the barrier, how would that help the terrorist get into the cockpit?

If terrorist decides to do a few trial runs, would they not figure out where the mobile barrier is "hidden"?

Has a prototype actually been built? From the drawings it looks as if there are areas where aerosol and bullets can pass as the upper barrier has rounded corners.
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 4:45 pm
  #185  
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Originally Posted by MacLeanBarrier
I've already met and meeting with more House and Senate offices to explain that the "wire mesh" 12-cable unit is not cost effective--which why most have been removed due to drink-carts and roller-bags always running into and breaking them. Too much downtime was a result due to the need to call 2 contractors to fix the 12-cable barrier and anchor it back into the bulkheads.

My barrier cart rolls off with a new one to replace it after landing--zero downtime.

The 12-cable system is also dangerous due to being exposed to the general passengers. It can be sabotaged with a simple metal tool or super-glue.

My barrier cart has an disturb-circuit alarm after it's stowed. It also collapses back into the special cart, stows and locks away with the standard drink-carts, and camoflages with them. Impossible to sabotage.

Finally, the 12-cable "wire mesh" system cannot stop firearms or synthetic opiod attacks with fentanyl or carfentanil. My barrier is bullet-proof and seals the forward galley.
and elephants fly.

What is the unit cost for your solution? Have you investigated what FAA hurdles you will need to clear.
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 5:00 pm
  #186  
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Originally Posted by Xyzzy
S? There are always two FAs behind the cart.
[...]
you like hyperbole
"ALWAYS" ... really??? And who is supervising that?

Do you get out of your seat and chide the crew when you do not see two or more up front?

Do you do it before or after the cockpit unlocks?

If you do it before, is that not a problem because you realized the "drink cart pony show" is taking place? Is that "show" not a problem--for the fact that it telegraphs that the door is about to get unlocked in violation of Section 104 of the 2001 ATSAC law?

Have you ever been on a flight with a short crew because one was a no-show?

OFTEN air marshals see only one--and he/she has back turned . Regardless, do you think two or more flight attendants can stop a suicidal attacker sprinting and jumping at them with an unlocked door that swings into the cockpit?

I'll see your hyperbole/hypocrisy and raise you, but nice try... ��

Last edited by MacLeanBarrier; Feb 10, 2019 at 5:48 pm
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 5:29 pm
  #187  
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Originally Posted by arttravel
Forgive me if my questions are stupid -- but where would it be stored with the standard drink cart? I do not hang out in the galley a lot, but there seems to be little room.
The same place or whichever one designated if 2019 H.R. 911 becomes law. If there's not enough room for one of my barrier systems, then you can put a standard drink cart in another galley in the mid-section or back of the aircraft.

Originally Posted by arttravel
About the synthetic opioid scenario -- Is no one going to notice a person putting on a personal respirator? On my last flights (international) the FAs were very vigilant when the carts were out, watching for any movement.
I routinely see passengers wearing the small white disposable respirators--especially when I fly to Asia.

Again, read what I just wrote about hoping the FAs have a full staff and are conscious of a rush-attack on an unlocked galley. I constantly see FAs not do what they are supposed to in order to stop a well-prepared suicidal attacker.

Originally Posted by arttravel
If someone starts shooting without the barrier, how would that help the terrorist get into the cockpit?
I don't understand why you are asking this question. The cockpit is bullet-proof, so if the door is closed the pilots are safe. Again, you cannot hijack a jet with a firearm post-9/11.

Originally Posted by arttravel
If a terrorist decides to do a few trial runs, would they not figure out where the mobile barrier is "hidden"?
Again, my barrier is stowed away and locked with a circuit-disturbance alarm. If someone tries to sabotage it, they will be detained upon landed. Similar situation when someone tried to disable the smoke alarms in the lavatories.

Originally Posted by arttravel
Has a prototype actually been built? From the drawings it looks as if there are areas where aerosol and bullets can pass as the upper barrier has rounded corners.
The drawings are not perfect and drawn for the patent examiners. My barrier cart will seal the forward galley. Regardless, my system will have (Naloxone) Narcan doses ready on the unit in the case that any opioids leak passed it. Remember, the cockpit door will only need to remain open for 2 seconds with my barrier. Right now, the door remains open 4 times too long because the pilot (1) unlocks it, (2) steps through, (3) steps aside for the flight attendant to switch with him/her, (4) then the flight attendant steps through.

Finally, and NO--your questions are not "stupid"--they are very good and need to be asked!

But frankly, the posters here are putting WAY TOO MUCH confidence in the age-limitless FAs never becoming COMPLACENT and ready to stop an attacker willing to sprint, dive, and die like the 19 hijackers on 9/11.
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 5:37 pm
  #188  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
and elephants fly.

What is the unit cost for your solution? Have you investigated what FAA hurdles you will need to clear.
The congressional press release only references the cost ineffective "wire mesh" 12-cable barrier systems. They are cheap because they put an exceptional burden on the constant maintenance they will require from 2 difference contractors who need to repair it and take the jet out of service.

This was no "elephant" who simply vaulted over a drink-cart. Not sure why you're so confident in 20 to 80-year-old FAs with a drink-cart saving your life...

Yes, the "FAA hurdles" are minimal in order to clear.

Last edited by MacLeanBarrier; Feb 10, 2019 at 5:54 pm
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 6:47 pm
  #189  
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Originally Posted by MacLeanBarrier
The congressional press release only references the cost ineffective "wire mesh" 12-cable barrier systems. They are cheap because they put an exceptional burden on the constant maintenance they will require from 2 difference contractors who need to repair it and take the jet out of service.

This was no "elephant" who simply vaulted over a drink-cart. Not sure why you're so confident in 20 to 80-year-old FAs with a drink-cart saving your life...
https://youtu.be/keKf2un03wI

Yes, the "FAA hurdles" are minimal in order to clear.
A rehearsed movie scene where everyone knows their steps doesn't represent reality. The airlines will balk at any system taking space from available storage, there's no additional storage that can be created. The number of flight attendants are specified per FAA regulations. I doubt the airlines make a habit of flying excess crew just for the heck of it.

14 CFR § 121.391 - Flight attendants.

(a) Except as specified in § 121.393 and § 121.394, each certificate holder must provide at least the following flight attendants on board each passenger-carrying airplane when passengers are on board:

(1) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds and having a seating capacity of more than 9 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.

(2) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less and having a seating capacity of more than 19 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.

(3) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers - two flight attendants.

(4) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers - two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 7:46 pm
  #190  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
A rehearsed movie scene where everyone knows their steps doesn't represent reality. The airlines will balk at any system taking space from available storage, there's no additional storage that can be created. The number of flight attendants are specified per FAA regulations. I doubt the airlines make a habit of flying excess crew just for the heck of it.

14 CFR § 121.391 - Flight attendants.

(a) Except as specified in § 121.393 and § 121.394, each certificate holder must provide at least the following flight attendants on board each passenger-carrying airplane when passengers are on board:

(1) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds and having a seating capacity of more than 9 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.

(2) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less and having a seating capacity of more than 19 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.

(3) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers - two flight attendants.

(4) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers - two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.
I'm sorry, but I don't see your point other than us relying on flight attendants--up to their 80s or later--and drink-carts to stop suicidal hijackers from diving into unlocked cockpits...

Again, remember that TSA directs TSOs to treat ALL passengers as suicidal threats--secondary barriers 100% stop such threats-- and trusts most, if not all, airport workers. Given special passes to avoid law enforcement "open and look" checks for religious food cargo:

https://www.whistleblower.org/press/...ty-breakdowns/
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 8:08 pm
  #191  
 
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Originally Posted by MacLeanBarrier
The same place or whichever one designated if 2019 H.R. 911 becomes law. If there's not enough room for one of my barrier systems, then you can put a standard drink cart in another galley in the mid-section or back of the aircraft.



I routinely see passengers wearing the small white disposable respirators--especially when I fly to Asia.
Those disposable masks are not sufficient to protect the terrorist from his own airborne fentanyl. Those are not recommended for any sort of high risk/concentration. The ones that would protect the terrorist against particulate or gas hazard is the SCBA: self-contained breathing apparatus; certified to NFPA 1981: Standard on Open-Circuit Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA) for Emergency Services. -- That is if the terrorist cares to abide by CDC guidelines for success.


I don't understand why you are asking this question. The cockpit is bullet-proof, so if the door is closed the pilots are safe. Again, you cannot hijack a jet with a firearm post-9/11.
I asked this because of the mention of the Kevlar for the fabric barrier -- I am asking because of the differences between wire barriers mentioned by the politicians vs what you have proposed.

The drawings are not perfect and drawn for the patent examiners. My barrier cart will seal the forward galley. Regardless, my system will have (Naloxone) Narcan doses ready on the unit in the case that any opioids leak passed it. Remember, the cockpit door will only need to remain open for 2 seconds with my barrier. Right now, the door remains open 4 times too long because the pilot (1) unlocks it, (2) steps through, (3) steps aside for the flight attendant to switch with him/her, (4) then the flight attendant steps through.
Isn't the flight attendant switching with pilot to prevent a repeat of the Germanwings suicidal pilot, -- ie protecting the passengers from the pilot versus other passengers. Won't the FAs still have to go in?

I have a question on practicality -- if there is no prototype, how will the airlines even consider it rather than the wire barriers. The FAA reauthorization bill of 2018 required secondary barriers in new planes-- this 2019 bill is to retrofit existing aircrafts. I think Boeing is expected to deliver at least 700 aircrafts in 2019 to airlines worldwide -- not certain how many are US based, Won't they want to use the same barrier system fleet wide? If the mobile barrier cart is not in production how can US based airlines that take delivery in the aircraft? Or is the 2018 bill not really extend to existing orders but completely new orders?

My limited understanding of inventions is design, patent, prototype if applicable, and then production -- but if one does not work for a company and cannot manufacture the invention themselves then one has to find investors or license the invention to get it into production. How does the development of the barrier fit the government deadlines.


I live in NYC (since the 90s) and fly a moderate amount -- nowhere near as many on this site. Those wire barriers on planes reminded me of the apartment window gates in NYC.

Last edited by TWA884; Feb 11, 2019 at 1:59 am Reason: Fix BB code for readability
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 11:14 pm
  #192  
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Originally Posted by MacLeanBarrier
I'm sorry, but I don't see your point other than us relying on flight attendants--up to their 80s or later--and drink-carts to stop suicidal hijackers from diving into unlocked cockpits...

Again, remember that TSA directs TSOs to treat ALL passengers as suicidal threats--secondary barriers 100% stop such threats-- and trusts most, if not all, airport workers. Given special passes to avoid law enforcement "open and look" checks for religious food cargo:

https://www.whistleblower.org/press/...ty-breakdowns/
My points are that aircraft operated under FAA regulations do not fly with a shortage of Flight Attendants. The number is mandated and if there is a shortage the aircraft stays on the ground.

If a barrier cart is introduced then something that currently uses that space will have to be eliminated. What equipment do you suggest the aircraft doesn't need?

You claim the wire mesh barriers often fail, what evidence do you have to support that claim.

With 17+ years of using the Cart/Flight Attendant barrier in the books there has not been a single breech or failure.

Just because something seems like a grand idea and solution doesn't make it so.

When only one pilot is at the controls at altitude the pilot must be on oxygen. That eliminates the fentanyl potential of contaminating the pilot.

I go back to an earlier suggestion that the FAM rides in a cockpit jump seat. Problems solved at little cost.
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 11:22 pm
  #193  
 
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog

I go back to an earlier suggestion that the FAM rides in a cockpit jump seat. Problems solved at little cost.
Agree with all except this part
the risk of having only 2 pilots (or even 1) on the flight deck is tiny
adding an additional but unknown quantity to the flight deck feels like a bad idea

i don’t personally believe either a fold out cart or an additional Air Marshal is required. This entire thing is a total non issue that doesn’t require a solution IMO
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Old Feb 10, 2019, 11:38 pm
  #194  
 
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Originally Posted by MacLeanBarrier
I routinely see passengers wearing the small white disposable respirators--especially when I fly to Asia.
You think those are respirators?

Again, read what I just wrote about hoping the FAs have a full staff and are conscious of a rush-attack on an unlocked galley. I constantly see FAs not do what they are supposed to in order to stop a well-prepared suicidal attacker.
You have a disconnect there in your reasoning. A determined suicide attacker is simply going to blow the plane up because that remains the simplest route to take because it *remains* the vector that is least well protected. "Taking over the cockpit" is the *least* likely option, with or without your barrier. And you, still, after all this time, have not been able to point to a single instance of the event you are seeking to prevent.


The drawings are not perfect and drawn for the patent examiners. My barrier cart will seal the forward galley. Regardless, my system will have (Naloxone) Narcan doses ready on the unit in the case that any opioids leak passed it.
It will *not* be sealed - not unless the aircraft is rebuilt so the bulkhead and everything around it out to the exterior skin of the aircraft is a vapor sealed unit - and that simply isn't going to happen. Again, you're presenting a scenario that has *never* happened in the history of aviation. You've got a solution and are in search of a problem.

Remember, the cockpit door will only need to remain open for 2 seconds with my barrier. Right now, the door remains open 4 times too long because the pilot (1) unlocks it, (2) steps through, (3) steps aside for the flight attendant to switch with him/her, (4) then the flight attendant steps through.
Where did you get your numbers from? And why are you ignoring the *actual* problem that *has* occurred several times IRL where the sole pilot has locked out the crew and flown the plane into the ground?
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Old Feb 11, 2019, 7:10 am
  #195  
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Originally Posted by nancypants


Agree with all except this part
the risk of having only 2 pilots (or even 1) on the flight deck is tiny
adding an additional but unknown quantity to the flight deck feels like a bad idea

i don’t personally believe either a fold out cart or an additional Air Marshal is required. This entire thing is a total non issue that doesn’t require a solution IMO
With the FAM in the cockpit good paying seats are restored to the carrier and the flight could be operated with just one FAM making more available for other flights.

I think there is little need for FAM's at all. Current procedures secure the cockpit and a successful bomber will explode their package too quickly to act on. An unsuccessful bomber will be dealt with by passengers. A barrier would even decrease the need for a FAM onboard.
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