MOBILE Flight Deck Secondary Barrier Galley Cart System
#181
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#182
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Programs: http://www.maclean-scotus.info
Posts: 132
#183
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Between AUS, EWR, and YTO In a little twisty maze of airline seats, all alike...
Programs: CO, NW, & UA forum moderator emeritus
Posts: 35,339
Gotcha. Pilots tell me that American Airlines flight attendant Bette Nash is still defending unlocked cockpits today with drink-carts. She'll be turning 84 this year:
https://youtu.be/SyCyM2oJq74
https://youtu.be/SyCyM2oJq74
#184
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 444
I've already met and meeting with more House and Senate offices to explain that the "wire mesh" 12-cable unit is not cost effective--which why most have been removed due to drink-carts and roller-bags always running into and breaking them. Too much downtime was a result due to the need to call 2 contractors to fix the 12-cable barrier and anchor it back into the bulkheads.
My barrier cart rolls off with a new one to replace it after landing--zero downtime.
The 12-cable system is also dangerous due to being exposed to the general passengers. It can be sabotaged with a simple metal tool or super-glue.
My barrier cart has an disturb-circuit alarm after it's stowed. It also collapses back into the special cart, stows and locks away with the standard drink-carts, and camoflages with them. Impossible to sabotage.
Finally, the 12-cable "wire mesh" system cannot stop firearms or synthetic opiod attacks with fentanyl or carfentanil. My barrier is bullet-proof and seals the forward galley.
My barrier cart rolls off with a new one to replace it after landing--zero downtime.
The 12-cable system is also dangerous due to being exposed to the general passengers. It can be sabotaged with a simple metal tool or super-glue.
My barrier cart has an disturb-circuit alarm after it's stowed. It also collapses back into the special cart, stows and locks away with the standard drink-carts, and camoflages with them. Impossible to sabotage.
Finally, the 12-cable "wire mesh" system cannot stop firearms or synthetic opiod attacks with fentanyl or carfentanil. My barrier is bullet-proof and seals the forward galley.
About the synthetic opoid scenario -- Is no one going to notice a person putting on a personal respirator? On my last flights (international) the FAs were very vigilant when the carts were out, watching for any movement.
If someone starts shooting without the barrier, how would that help the terrorist get into the cockpit?
If terrorist decides to do a few trial runs, would they not figure out where the mobile barrier is "hidden"?
Has a prototype actually been built? From the drawings it looks as if there are areas where aerosol and bullets can pass as the upper barrier has rounded corners.
#185
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,010
I've already met and meeting with more House and Senate offices to explain that the "wire mesh" 12-cable unit is not cost effective--which why most have been removed due to drink-carts and roller-bags always running into and breaking them. Too much downtime was a result due to the need to call 2 contractors to fix the 12-cable barrier and anchor it back into the bulkheads.
My barrier cart rolls off with a new one to replace it after landing--zero downtime.
The 12-cable system is also dangerous due to being exposed to the general passengers. It can be sabotaged with a simple metal tool or super-glue.
My barrier cart has an disturb-circuit alarm after it's stowed. It also collapses back into the special cart, stows and locks away with the standard drink-carts, and camoflages with them. Impossible to sabotage.
Finally, the 12-cable "wire mesh" system cannot stop firearms or synthetic opiod attacks with fentanyl or carfentanil. My barrier is bullet-proof and seals the forward galley.
My barrier cart rolls off with a new one to replace it after landing--zero downtime.
The 12-cable system is also dangerous due to being exposed to the general passengers. It can be sabotaged with a simple metal tool or super-glue.
My barrier cart has an disturb-circuit alarm after it's stowed. It also collapses back into the special cart, stows and locks away with the standard drink-carts, and camoflages with them. Impossible to sabotage.
Finally, the 12-cable "wire mesh" system cannot stop firearms or synthetic opiod attacks with fentanyl or carfentanil. My barrier is bullet-proof and seals the forward galley.
What is the unit cost for your solution? Have you investigated what FAA hurdles you will need to clear.
#186
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
Programs: http://www.maclean-scotus.info
Posts: 132
"ALWAYS" ... really??? And who is supervising that?
Do you get out of your seat and chide the crew when you do not see two or more up front?
Do you do it before or after the cockpit unlocks?
If you do it before, is that not a problem because you realized the "drink cart pony show" is taking place? Is that "show" not a problem--for the fact that it telegraphs that the door is about to get unlocked in violation of Section 104 of the 2001 ATSAC law?
Have you ever been on a flight with a short crew because one was a no-show?
OFTEN air marshals see only one--and he/she has back turned . Regardless, do you think two or more flight attendants can stop a suicidal attacker sprinting and jumping at them with an unlocked door that swings into the cockpit?
I'll see your hyperbole/hypocrisy and raise you, but nice try...
Do you get out of your seat and chide the crew when you do not see two or more up front?
Do you do it before or after the cockpit unlocks?
If you do it before, is that not a problem because you realized the "drink cart pony show" is taking place? Is that "show" not a problem--for the fact that it telegraphs that the door is about to get unlocked in violation of Section 104 of the 2001 ATSAC law?
Have you ever been on a flight with a short crew because one was a no-show?
OFTEN air marshals see only one--and he/she has back turned . Regardless, do you think two or more flight attendants can stop a suicidal attacker sprinting and jumping at them with an unlocked door that swings into the cockpit?
I'll see your hyperbole/hypocrisy and raise you, but nice try...
Last edited by MacLeanBarrier; Feb 10, 2019 at 5:48 pm
#187
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Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Leesburg, Virginia
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Posts: 132
Again, read what I just wrote about hoping the FAs have a full staff and are conscious of a rush-attack on an unlocked galley. I constantly see FAs not do what they are supposed to in order to stop a well-prepared suicidal attacker.
Finally, and NO--your questions are not "stupid"--they are very good and need to be asked!
But frankly, the posters here are putting WAY TOO MUCH confidence in the age-limitless FAs never becoming COMPLACENT and ready to stop an attacker willing to sprint, dive, and die like the 19 hijackers on 9/11.
#188
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This was no "elephant" who simply vaulted over a drink-cart. Not sure why you're so confident in 20 to 80-year-old FAs with a drink-cart saving your life...
Yes, the "FAA hurdles" are minimal in order to clear.
Last edited by MacLeanBarrier; Feb 10, 2019 at 5:54 pm
#189
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,010
The congressional press release only references the cost ineffective "wire mesh" 12-cable barrier systems. They are cheap because they put an exceptional burden on the constant maintenance they will require from 2 difference contractors who need to repair it and take the jet out of service.
This was no "elephant" who simply vaulted over a drink-cart. Not sure why you're so confident in 20 to 80-year-old FAs with a drink-cart saving your life...
https://youtu.be/keKf2un03wI
Yes, the "FAA hurdles" are minimal in order to clear.
This was no "elephant" who simply vaulted over a drink-cart. Not sure why you're so confident in 20 to 80-year-old FAs with a drink-cart saving your life...
https://youtu.be/keKf2un03wI
Yes, the "FAA hurdles" are minimal in order to clear.
14 CFR § 121.391 - Flight attendants.
(a) Except as specified in § 121.393 and § 121.394, each certificate holder must provide at least the following flight attendants on board each passenger-carrying airplane when passengers are on board:
(1) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds and having a seating capacity of more than 9 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.
(2) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less and having a seating capacity of more than 19 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.
(3) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers - two flight attendants.
(4) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers - two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.
#190
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A rehearsed movie scene where everyone knows their steps doesn't represent reality. The airlines will balk at any system taking space from available storage, there's no additional storage that can be created. The number of flight attendants are specified per FAA regulations. I doubt the airlines make a habit of flying excess crew just for the heck of it.
14 CFR § 121.391 - Flight attendants.
(a) Except as specified in § 121.393 and § 121.394, each certificate holder must provide at least the following flight attendants on board each passenger-carrying airplane when passengers are on board:
(1) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds and having a seating capacity of more than 9 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.
(2) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less and having a seating capacity of more than 19 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.
(3) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers - two flight attendants.
(4) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers - two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.
14 CFR § 121.391 - Flight attendants.
(a) Except as specified in § 121.393 and § 121.394, each certificate holder must provide at least the following flight attendants on board each passenger-carrying airplane when passengers are on board:
(1) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds and having a seating capacity of more than 9 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.
(2) For airplanes having a maximum payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less and having a seating capacity of more than 19 but less than 51 passengers - one flight attendant.
(3) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 50 but less than 101 passengers - two flight attendants.
(4) For airplanes having a seating capacity of more than 100 passengers - two flight attendants plus one additional flight attendant for each unit (or part of a unit) of 50 passenger seats above a seating capacity of 100 passengers.
Again, remember that TSA directs TSOs to treat ALL passengers as suicidal threats--secondary barriers 100% stop such threats-- and trusts most, if not all, airport workers. Given special passes to avoid law enforcement "open and look" checks for religious food cargo:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/...ty-breakdowns/
#191
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: NYC
Programs: UA
Posts: 444
The same place or whichever one designated if 2019 H.R. 911 becomes law. If there's not enough room for one of my barrier systems, then you can put a standard drink cart in another galley in the mid-section or back of the aircraft.
I routinely see passengers wearing the small white disposable respirators--especially when I fly to Asia.
I routinely see passengers wearing the small white disposable respirators--especially when I fly to Asia.
I don't understand why you are asking this question. The cockpit is bullet-proof, so if the door is closed the pilots are safe. Again, you cannot hijack a jet with a firearm post-9/11.
The drawings are not perfect and drawn for the patent examiners. My barrier cart will seal the forward galley. Regardless, my system will have (Naloxone) Narcan doses ready on the unit in the case that any opioids leak passed it. Remember, the cockpit door will only need to remain open for 2 seconds with my barrier. Right now, the door remains open 4 times too long because the pilot (1) unlocks it, (2) steps through, (3) steps aside for the flight attendant to switch with him/her, (4) then the flight attendant steps through.
I have a question on practicality -- if there is no prototype, how will the airlines even consider it rather than the wire barriers. The FAA reauthorization bill of 2018 required secondary barriers in new planes-- this 2019 bill is to retrofit existing aircrafts. I think Boeing is expected to deliver at least 700 aircrafts in 2019 to airlines worldwide -- not certain how many are US based, Won't they want to use the same barrier system fleet wide? If the mobile barrier cart is not in production how can US based airlines that take delivery in the aircraft? Or is the 2018 bill not really extend to existing orders but completely new orders?
My limited understanding of inventions is design, patent, prototype if applicable, and then production -- but if one does not work for a company and cannot manufacture the invention themselves then one has to find investors or license the invention to get it into production. How does the development of the barrier fit the government deadlines.
I live in NYC (since the 90s) and fly a moderate amount -- nowhere near as many on this site. Those wire barriers on planes reminded me of the apartment window gates in NYC.
Last edited by TWA884; Feb 11, 2019 at 1:59 am Reason: Fix BB code for readability
#192
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,010
I'm sorry, but I don't see your point other than us relying on flight attendants--up to their 80s or later--and drink-carts to stop suicidal hijackers from diving into unlocked cockpits...
Again, remember that TSA directs TSOs to treat ALL passengers as suicidal threats--secondary barriers 100% stop such threats-- and trusts most, if not all, airport workers. Given special passes to avoid law enforcement "open and look" checks for religious food cargo:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/...ty-breakdowns/
Again, remember that TSA directs TSOs to treat ALL passengers as suicidal threats--secondary barriers 100% stop such threats-- and trusts most, if not all, airport workers. Given special passes to avoid law enforcement "open and look" checks for religious food cargo:
https://www.whistleblower.org/press/...ty-breakdowns/
If a barrier cart is introduced then something that currently uses that space will have to be eliminated. What equipment do you suggest the aircraft doesn't need?
You claim the wire mesh barriers often fail, what evidence do you have to support that claim.
With 17+ years of using the Cart/Flight Attendant barrier in the books there has not been a single breech or failure.
Just because something seems like a grand idea and solution doesn't make it so.
When only one pilot is at the controls at altitude the pilot must be on oxygen. That eliminates the fentanyl potential of contaminating the pilot.
I go back to an earlier suggestion that the FAM rides in a cockpit jump seat. Problems solved at little cost.
#193
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: NT Australia
Programs: QF WP
Posts: 4,149
the risk of having only 2 pilots (or even 1) on the flight deck is tiny
adding an additional but unknown quantity to the flight deck feels like a bad idea
i don’t personally believe either a fold out cart or an additional Air Marshal is required. This entire thing is a total non issue that doesn’t require a solution IMO
#194
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Frensham, Lincolnshire
Programs: RFC
Posts: 5,029
I routinely see passengers wearing the small white disposable respirators--especially when I fly to Asia.
Again, read what I just wrote about hoping the FAs have a full staff and are conscious of a rush-attack on an unlocked galley. I constantly see FAs not do what they are supposed to in order to stop a well-prepared suicidal attacker.
The drawings are not perfect and drawn for the patent examiners. My barrier cart will seal the forward galley. Regardless, my system will have (Naloxone) Narcan doses ready on the unit in the case that any opioids leak passed it.
Remember, the cockpit door will only need to remain open for 2 seconds with my barrier. Right now, the door remains open 4 times too long because the pilot (1) unlocks it, (2) steps through, (3) steps aside for the flight attendant to switch with him/her, (4) then the flight attendant steps through.
#195
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,010
Agree with all except this part
the risk of having only 2 pilots (or even 1) on the flight deck is tiny
adding an additional but unknown quantity to the flight deck feels like a bad idea
i don’t personally believe either a fold out cart or an additional Air Marshal is required. This entire thing is a total non issue that doesn’t require a solution IMO
I think there is little need for FAM's at all. Current procedures secure the cockpit and a successful bomber will explode their package too quickly to act on. An unsuccessful bomber will be dealt with by passengers. A barrier would even decrease the need for a FAM onboard.