TSA wants to get more intimate when doing passenger pat downs.
Sep 10, 2018, 6:33 am
#811
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
I counted 50 outbounds for today but gave a generous margin of error.
I agree that we can observe pat downs and observers are reporting full on genital gropes. Just like when TSA was using the term "until resistance is met" but was too cowardly to say genitals.
We know what screeners are doing, problem is we don't know if what is being done is correct procedure or not. If TSA is going to grope my genitals I should know that up front, otherwise how can I give consent. That's why a full, complete description, of the screening process should be required to be published. If the process is effective disclosure will not weaken the search.
Wondering how many remember the screener getting mouthy with a passenger and telling them, your gonna respect this here badge? Can't find the video clip, may have been deleted. I distinctly remember that jewel of a video and feel that is how many travelers see TSA screeners and the play badges ya'll have and that's not in a good way.
TSA's Complaint process needs a complete overhaul. Legislation might well be needed but the person lodging the complaint should be a full participant of the process and know the outcome. I don't give a rats behind about a screeners privacy, not as long as TSA demands all of my personal information to just file a complaint. Lets level the playing field!
I'm tired of hearing "We can't" from TSA, lets hear some "We Can" for a change
I agree that we can observe pat downs and observers are reporting full on genital gropes. Just like when TSA was using the term "until resistance is met" but was too cowardly to say genitals.
We know what screeners are doing, problem is we don't know if what is being done is correct procedure or not. If TSA is going to grope my genitals I should know that up front, otherwise how can I give consent. That's why a full, complete description, of the screening process should be required to be published. If the process is effective disclosure will not weaken the search.
Wondering how many remember the screener getting mouthy with a passenger and telling them, your gonna respect this here badge? Can't find the video clip, may have been deleted. I distinctly remember that jewel of a video and feel that is how many travelers see TSA screeners and the play badges ya'll have and that's not in a good way.
TSA's Complaint process needs a complete overhaul. Legislation might well be needed but the person lodging the complaint should be a full participant of the process and know the outcome. I don't give a rats behind about a screeners privacy, not as long as TSA demands all of my personal information to just file a complaint. Lets level the playing field!
I'm tired of hearing "We can't" from TSA, lets hear some "We Can" for a change
If you act professional, it doesn't matter whether the passenger respects you or the badge, do the job right, do it as close to the same every single time, and be willing to work with a passenger that has special needs - that is the job in a nutshell.
The TSO that said "you respect this badge" or anything else like that, should have no place in the organization. That is a misplaced focus, the focus should be on getting the job done, not standing and arguing with someone about what you feel you are "owed".
I too would like to see our complaints process be more transparent and interactive - but I am a person of limited (read that to mean none) influence.
Sep 10, 2018, 6:37 am
#812
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
I'm not certain that complaints filed via Facebook Messenger are handled any differently.
Sep 10, 2018, 7:14 am
#813
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
Comments, gsoltso:
1) Maybe if TSA had handled complaints appropriately in the first place, there wouldn't be a need for more money and staff to investigate complaints because problems would get addressed. Put some of the FAMs to work researching claims while they're sitting in first class doing nothing else noteworthy. If TSA ever researched and addressed its complaints and got caught up (so pax aren't complaining about the same misconduct over and over and over), there wouldn't be any need for a humongous department and staff.
2) did you see the video of the young boy in shorts who had his genitals rubbed - and then rubbed again at the supervisor's insistence? I know that didn't happen at GSO and you didn't personally witness it at another airport - are you suggesting you think it didn't really happen? If you saw the video and you know it's real, then it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that because you have never personally witnessed such a hands-on event, it never happens.
3) if participating in a 'mystery shopper' program means 1) you have to work for TSA and 2) you have to live in DC, then TSA does not have a suitable 'mystery shopper' program. The closest us flyers have is the lady who keeps slipping past checkpoints without getting caught.
Unfortunately, typical for TSA, instead of welcoming her as a valuable asset, TSA treated her like all other pax: she's guilty, it's her fault, shut her down, put her on a list, destroy her. Not like TSA could learn a thing or two by watching and listening to her.
'Mystery shoppers' should be non-TSA personnel, even volunteers, and all airports should regularly be visited by 'mystery shoppers'. They should include pax in wheelchairs, including those who, like my sister and Amy Van Dyken, are paralyzed, pax with crutches, medical devices, fake (or real) dressings, prosthetics, medical ports, medicines (including medical nitro pills), parents with infants and breast milk, children with autism, hearing-impaired or deaf pax. Ideally, at least initially, some of the 'mystery shoppers' should be first-time or very infrequent flyers. There should be black women with hair of all lengths, people of all ages, couples, and children.
1) Maybe if TSA had handled complaints appropriately in the first place, there wouldn't be a need for more money and staff to investigate complaints because problems would get addressed. Put some of the FAMs to work researching claims while they're sitting in first class doing nothing else noteworthy. If TSA ever researched and addressed its complaints and got caught up (so pax aren't complaining about the same misconduct over and over and over), there wouldn't be any need for a humongous department and staff.
2) did you see the video of the young boy in shorts who had his genitals rubbed - and then rubbed again at the supervisor's insistence? I know that didn't happen at GSO and you didn't personally witness it at another airport - are you suggesting you think it didn't really happen? If you saw the video and you know it's real, then it's a bit disingenuous to pretend that because you have never personally witnessed such a hands-on event, it never happens.
3) if participating in a 'mystery shopper' program means 1) you have to work for TSA and 2) you have to live in DC, then TSA does not have a suitable 'mystery shopper' program. The closest us flyers have is the lady who keeps slipping past checkpoints without getting caught.
Unfortunately, typical for TSA, instead of welcoming her as a valuable asset, TSA treated her like all other pax: she's guilty, it's her fault, shut her down, put her on a list, destroy her. Not like TSA could learn a thing or two by watching and listening to her.
'Mystery shoppers' should be non-TSA personnel, even volunteers, and all airports should regularly be visited by 'mystery shoppers'. They should include pax in wheelchairs, including those who, like my sister and Amy Van Dyken, are paralyzed, pax with crutches, medical devices, fake (or real) dressings, prosthetics, medical ports, medicines (including medical nitro pills), parents with infants and breast milk, children with autism, hearing-impaired or deaf pax. Ideally, at least initially, some of the 'mystery shoppers' should be first-time or very infrequent flyers. There should be black women with hair of all lengths, people of all ages, couples, and children.
2. You are talking about the 13 year old, I saw the video, and I can not discuss procedures and whether something is correct or incorrect in public, without TSA publishing it first. I will refer you to pat down expectations video I posted a while back, it will give you a basic outline of the process to take place. Side note, I have not said that it never happens, just that I have not seen what some here have described.
3. I would like a disinterested system, but I would also like an interested system. If we only use non-employees, we can't necessarily tell whether procedures have been followed during the process. I would love to use outside individuals to help with professionalism, service and process, but I would also like the organization to retain some form of mystery shopper program using employees. I think that I would actually be harder on the employees than someone like you would, because I have a more intimate knowledge of how things are supposed to be, and I have a vested interest in making things better across the board. I also agree that the testing process should include a wide array of people, some with no challenges, some with minor challenges, and some that have special needs that will require critical thinking on the part of the TSO. One of my favorite days to work here is the Wings for Autism days, where we have the (mostly) younglings and their families coming through to help them learn how to help those family members through the airport setting - it also gives us a chance to hone our skills on assisting passengers with special needs. It also gives us a chance to build those relationships with the families and in some cases, the person with special needs, which makes their trips out a bit easier sometimes (not always, but sometimes).
I think that we will have to disagree on Marilyn Hartman. We can examine her habits via observation and video from CCTV, we can interview her to gather more information, and we can post her picture on the walls so our workforce c an try and recognize her when she comes in again. I see no appreciable way that we would be able to welcome her into discussions as a source of information. She has had consistent mental and/or emotional challenges, and has been institutionalized on more than one occasion - not saying that she is a bad person, just that she is not someone that I could see the organization trying to use as a source due to her erratic behavior.
Sep 10, 2018, 7:32 am
#814
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Greensboro
Programs: TSA
Posts: 2,424
This is how @AskTSA handles complaints:
https://twitter.com/AskTSA/status/1039120876162215937
I'm not certain that complaints filed via Facebook Messenger are handled any differently.
https://twitter.com/AskTSA/status/1039120876162215937
I'm not certain that complaints filed via Facebook Messenger are handled any differently.
Sep 10, 2018, 7:37 am
#815
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
In some cases, AskTSA can provide an answer or give information - however, it is not the official complaints process, hence the link to file the complaint with HQ. I have no knowledge of what they do with FB Messenger, but it is not the official complaints section either, so it may be something similar.
Sep 10, 2018, 8:01 am
#816
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,083
Smart and professional TSOs do not tap the badge and tell someone that they will respect it, they simply perform the job in a professional and courteous manner - regardless of whether the passenger is cooperative, complaining or down right combative. I tend to think that it is important to be professional and courteous with everyone - but I try really hard to be super numerator for passengers that present a challenge.
If you act professional, it doesn't matter whether the passenger respects you or the badge, do the job right, do it as close to the same every single time, and be willing to work with a passenger that has special needs - that is the job in a nutshell.
The TSO that said "you respect this badge" or anything else like that, should have no place in the organization. That is a misplaced focus, the focus should be on getting the job done, not standing and arguing with someone about what you feel you are "owed".
I too would like to see our complaints process be more transparent and interactive - but I am a person of limited (read that to mean none) influence.
If you act professional, it doesn't matter whether the passenger respects you or the badge, do the job right, do it as close to the same every single time, and be willing to work with a passenger that has special needs - that is the job in a nutshell.
The TSO that said "you respect this badge" or anything else like that, should have no place in the organization. That is a misplaced focus, the focus should be on getting the job done, not standing and arguing with someone about what you feel you are "owed".
I too would like to see our complaints process be more transparent and interactive - but I am a person of limited (read that to mean none) influence.
The TSA screener who said "You Will Respect This Here Badge" was captured on video and was either an STSO or LTSO. The only image I can find of that is blurry but it is clear there are more than one stripe. So this is a TSA employee who is supervising and teaching others.
You Will Respect This Badge Right Here!
1. I find it difficult to dispute your logic. I will modify it slightly saying that if they had done the process a different way, then we would have a much better chance of resolving issues early in the process.
2. You are talking about the 13 year old, I saw the video, and I can not discuss procedures and whether something is correct or incorrect in public, without TSA publishing it first. I will refer you to pat down expectations video I posted a while back, it will give you a basic outline of the process to take place. Side note, I have not said that it never happens, just that I have not seen what some here have described.
3. I would like a disinterested system, but I would also like an interested system. If we only use non-employees, we can't necessarily tell whether procedures have been followed during the process. I would love to use outside individuals to help with professionalism, service and process, but I would also like the organization to retain some form of mystery shopper program using employees. I think that I would actually be harder on the employees than someone like you would, because I have a more intimate knowledge of how things are supposed to be, and I have a vested interest in making things better across the board. I also agree that the testing process should include a wide array of people, some with no challenges, some with minor challenges, and some that have special needs that will require critical thinking on the part of the TSO. One of my favorite days to work here is the Wings for Autism days, where we have the (mostly) younglings and their families coming through to help them learn how to help those family members through the airport setting - it also gives us a chance to hone our skills on assisting passengers with special needs. It also gives us a chance to build those relationships with the families and in some cases, the person with special needs, which makes their trips out a bit easier sometimes (not always, but sometimes).
I think that we will have to disagree on Marilyn Hartman. We can examine her habits via observation and video from CCTV, we can interview her to gather more information, and we can post her picture on the walls so our workforce c an try and recognize her when she comes in again. I see no appreciable way that we would be able to welcome her into discussions as a source of information. She has had consistent mental and/or emotional challenges, and has been institutionalized on more than one occasion - not saying that she is a bad person, just that she is not someone that I could see the organization trying to use as a source due to her erratic behavior.
2. You are talking about the 13 year old, I saw the video, and I can not discuss procedures and whether something is correct or incorrect in public, without TSA publishing it first. I will refer you to pat down expectations video I posted a while back, it will give you a basic outline of the process to take place. Side note, I have not said that it never happens, just that I have not seen what some here have described.
3. I would like a disinterested system, but I would also like an interested system. If we only use non-employees, we can't necessarily tell whether procedures have been followed during the process. I would love to use outside individuals to help with professionalism, service and process, but I would also like the organization to retain some form of mystery shopper program using employees. I think that I would actually be harder on the employees than someone like you would, because I have a more intimate knowledge of how things are supposed to be, and I have a vested interest in making things better across the board. I also agree that the testing process should include a wide array of people, some with no challenges, some with minor challenges, and some that have special needs that will require critical thinking on the part of the TSO. One of my favorite days to work here is the Wings for Autism days, where we have the (mostly) younglings and their families coming through to help them learn how to help those family members through the airport setting - it also gives us a chance to hone our skills on assisting passengers with special needs. It also gives us a chance to build those relationships with the families and in some cases, the person with special needs, which makes their trips out a bit easier sometimes (not always, but sometimes).
I think that we will have to disagree on Marilyn Hartman. We can examine her habits via observation and video from CCTV, we can interview her to gather more information, and we can post her picture on the walls so our workforce c an try and recognize her when she comes in again. I see no appreciable way that we would be able to welcome her into discussions as a source of information. She has had consistent mental and/or emotional challenges, and has been institutionalized on more than one occasion - not saying that she is a bad person, just that she is not someone that I could see the organization trying to use as a source due to her erratic behavior.
You can't say if the screening of the girl was correct or not? The 13 year old's incident is part of a lawsuit against TSA. I doubt that would happen without some confidence that something wrong happened. Of course TSA Administrator Pekose would say that TSA screeners don't grope people. I state again, that is a problem in its on right.
Ms. Hartman seems very capable of functioning in public. At the minimum interviews with her would help answer some apparent weaknesses in TSA's security plan.
In some cases, AskTSA can provide an answer or give information - however, it is not the official complaints process, hence the link to file the complaint with HQ. I have no knowledge of what they do with FB Messenger, but it is not the official complaints section either, so it may be something similar.
TSA is a big user of Social Media but only to push TSA propaganda. Time for TSA to work for passengers not against them. We are not the enemy that TSA makes us out to be!
Sep 10, 2018, 8:16 am
#817
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
You are just one person and I strongly suggest that your work style is in the very tiniest minority of TSA employees. That's a problem which TSA appears unwilling to address.
The TSA screener who said "You Will Respect This Here Badge" was captured on video and was either an STSO or LTSO. The only image I can find of that is blurry but it is clear there are more than one stripe. So this is a TSA employee who is supervising and teaching others.
You Will Respect This Badge Right Here!
Are you stating that TSA already has a Secret Shopper Program? I don't mean the Red Team but people that go out and search for non-compliant TSA employees? I agree that the general public could not do this but it could be former TSA employees, people who have retired from government service or even staff who are willing to do TDY type assignments for a couple of weeks. It simply can be done if TSA thinks it is important to do!
You can't say if the screening of the girl was correct or not? The 13 year old's incident is part of a lawsuit against TSA. I doubt that would happen without some confidence that something wrong happened. Of course TSA Administrator Pekose would say that TSA screeners don't grope people. I state again, that is a problem in its on right.
Ms. Hartman seems very capable of functioning in public. At the minimum interviews with her would help answer some apparent weaknesses in TSA's security plan.
Then why doesn't @ASKTSA tell the person how to file the complaint properly or say "we will refer your complaint to the proper office"? I suggest because TSA doesn't want to resolve complaints.
TSA is a big user of Social Media but only to push TSA propaganda. Time for TSA to work for passengers not against them. We are not the enemy that TSA makes us out to be!
The TSA screener who said "You Will Respect This Here Badge" was captured on video and was either an STSO or LTSO. The only image I can find of that is blurry but it is clear there are more than one stripe. So this is a TSA employee who is supervising and teaching others.
You Will Respect This Badge Right Here!
Are you stating that TSA already has a Secret Shopper Program? I don't mean the Red Team but people that go out and search for non-compliant TSA employees? I agree that the general public could not do this but it could be former TSA employees, people who have retired from government service or even staff who are willing to do TDY type assignments for a couple of weeks. It simply can be done if TSA thinks it is important to do!
You can't say if the screening of the girl was correct or not? The 13 year old's incident is part of a lawsuit against TSA. I doubt that would happen without some confidence that something wrong happened. Of course TSA Administrator Pekose would say that TSA screeners don't grope people. I state again, that is a problem in its on right.
Ms. Hartman seems very capable of functioning in public. At the minimum interviews with her would help answer some apparent weaknesses in TSA's security plan.
Then why doesn't @ASKTSA tell the person how to file the complaint properly or say "we will refer your complaint to the proper office"? I suggest because TSA doesn't want to resolve complaints.
TSA is a big user of Social Media but only to push TSA propaganda. Time for TSA to work for passengers not against them. We are not the enemy that TSA makes us out to be!
Sep 10, 2018, 11:10 am
#819
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,643
In some cases, AskTSA can provide an answer or give information - however, it is not the official complaints process, hence the link to file the complaint with HQ. I have no knowledge of what they do with FB Messenger, but it is not the official complaints section either, so it may be something similar.
If AskTSA is not an 'official complaints process', in fairness to the people who pay TSA salaries and put up with their nastiness, AskTSA should post a big visible disclaimer on its page and accompany most responses with ssomething like this:
"Thank you for your complaint. AskTSA does not process complaints or forward them to a department that already has complete visiblity for follow-up, if possible. Nothing that is posted on AskTSA is binding at the checkpoint or anywhere else at the airport. Like everything else TSA tells you, the truth is SSI and YMMV greatly from anything published here.
If you do not follow-up by giving us all of your personal information (for retaliatory purposes) via a formal complaint, no one other than the media and other citizens will read your complaint or care. "
Sep 10, 2018, 12:45 pm
#820
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,643
3. I would like a disinterested system, but I would also like an interested system. If we only use non-employees, we can't necessarily tell whether procedures have been followed during the process. I would love to use outside individuals to help with professionalism, service and process, but I would also like the organization to retain some form of mystery shopper program using employees. I think that I would actually be harder on the employees than someone like you would, because I have a more intimate knowledge of how things are supposed to be, and I have a vested interest in making things better across the board. I also agree that the testing process should include a wide array of people, some with no challenges, some with minor challenges, and some that have special needs that will require critical thinking on the part of the TSO. One of my favorite days to work here is the Wings for Autism days, where we have the (mostly) younglings and their families coming through to help them learn how to help those family members through the airport setting - it also gives us a chance to hone our skills on assisting passengers with special needs. It also gives us a chance to build those relationships with the families and in some cases, the person with special needs, which makes their trips out a bit easier sometimes (not always, but sometimes).
I think what you are really saying has just confirmed what Boggie Dog pointed out. We pax show up at the checkpoint and regularly get chewed out and humiliated by TSOs for not properly preparing.
What you are saying is that a civilian TSA 'secret shopper' can't properly judge TSOs because the 'secret shopper' wouldn't be privy to the special SSI rules, so s/he would have no way of knowing when the rules have been broken.
Think about that. You have just declared that the pax are never allowed to know SSI checkpoint rules, so ordinary pax and 'secret shoppers' have no way of knowing if the rules have been violated or not. Maybe it really is OK for a TSO to prod my genitals with a single finger during my grope. I think that's appalling and unnecessary, but I don't know if it's an actual violation of the rules because TSA won't tell me.
What's the real fear here? Suppose I am a non-TSA 'secret shopper' I go through a checkpoint and TSA confiscates my medical nitroglycerine pills and tells me I have to get a backroom grope solely because of the pills.
As an ordinary citizen, I think I should be allowed to take my pills, but I am aware that 'screener discretion' means they can be confiscated at any time for no reason. I made a complaint about it before, but I never heard anything back. As a 'secret shopper', all I can do is report what happened to me. No one is going to get fired or disciplined solely on my word, but at least I actually have a voice that might get listened to. Someone might actually go back to the checkpoint and find a misguided screener. Or a special airport/checkpoint rule.
What's your problem with that?
Presumably a 'secret shopper' program would work somewhat like the DEN investigation into the sexual predator TSO. A 'secret shopper' with no insider knowledge reports something like a particular screener's gropes are over the top or a particular screener stole something while a bag was being searched out of a pax's sight while the pax was being groped. TSA 'insiders' with all the special secret SSI knowledge will then review tapes, interview the TSO(s) involved, and maybe, just maybe, realize that there is really a problem: screener ignorance, screener attitude, screener communication, pax misunderstanding.
Sep 10, 2018, 2:11 pm
#821
Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, Travel Tools, California, Los Angeles; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: oneword Emerald
Posts: 20,603
Moderator's Note: Topic Drift
Folks,
This thread is about invasive TSA pat downs, not how the TSA or the Office of Inspector General processes complaints or the TSA's "Secret Shopper" program, etc. You are free to discuss those topics in existing threads on those subjects or start new ones.
Please try to keep your posts somewhat relevant to the topic of this thread (FlyerTalk Rule 5).
Thank you,
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator
This thread is about invasive TSA pat downs, not how the TSA or the Office of Inspector General processes complaints or the TSA's "Secret Shopper" program, etc. You are free to discuss those topics in existing threads on those subjects or start new ones.
Please try to keep your posts somewhat relevant to the topic of this thread (FlyerTalk Rule 5).
Thank you,
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator
Sep 12, 2018, 5:19 pm
#822
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Your agents aggressively groped me today in LGA airport much to my humiliation and left me in tears. I can endure rudeness but I’m very upset by this incident. I need to speak to TSA management. Please assist....
I called that number. It’s an automated system that redirects back to your website for complaints.
I called that number. It’s an automated system that redirects back to your website for complaints.
Sep 12, 2018, 9:21 pm
#823
Moderator: Travel Safety/Security, Travel Tools, California, Los Angeles; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: LAX
Programs: oneword Emerald
Posts: 20,603
Moderator's Note: Getting Personal
Folks,
Getting personal is against our posting guidelines. Discuss the subject matter, not each other!
The next member to post in violation of FlyerTalk Rule 12.2 will earn a minimum of seven days suspension of their posting privileges without further warning.
Post(s) have been deleted.
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator
Getting personal is against our posting guidelines. Discuss the subject matter, not each other!
The next member to post in violation of FlyerTalk Rule 12.2 will earn a minimum of seven days suspension of their posting privileges without further warning.
Post(s) have been deleted.
TWA884
Travel Safety/Security co-moderator
Sep 12, 2018, 10:56 pm
#824
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
Programs: AA platinum; 2MM AA, Delta Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,291
Recently at JFK T8 (AA) at TSA Pre-Check I had the opposite of the thread title, I was random for extra security, I went through the "special" scanning machine the agent noted he would "pat me down": he touched my shoulder and my ankle NOTHING else...
Sep 13, 2018, 5:56 am
#825
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,526
Either the screener violated protocol or protocol has changed since the order to do full pat downs in order to relieve screeners of "cognitive burdens" was issued.