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TSA wants to get more intimate when doing passenger pat downs.

TSA wants to get more intimate when doing passenger pat downs.

Old Sep 5, 2018, 2:25 pm
  #781  
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When the TSA Administrator isn't even open to the question what hope is there of any traveler complaint being honestly investigated?

All I can say is, Mr. Administrator, it happened at Denver!
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Old Sep 6, 2018, 7:16 am
  #782  
 
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Originally Posted by studentff
I'm sure you've heard this before, but this sort of hair-splitting is maddening to traveling citizens who actually experience front-of-hand genital contact, repeated "incidental" back of hand genital contact, or whatever else you are being vague about, regardless of the words TSA uses to describe what they claim they are going to do. I'm sure TSA spends lots of $ on PR hacks to identify borderline-correct euphemisms like "groin" instead of "genital," and I'm sure they spend a lot of time indoctrinating employees on those words and their goodness, but it does not change the passenger experience.

This is reminiscent of TSA's insistence on claiming that TSA does not confiscate items that are barred from passing the checkpoint and that passengers "voluntarily surrender" these items. No passenger cares about that distinction when they are facing missing a flight, have no parked car to which to return the item even if they had time, etc. But TSA loved to tout that and I'm sure loved to indoctrinate TSA employees on the benevolence of "voluntarily surrender."

The video you link to, by the way, is maddening to any traveler who identifies a "sensitive/painful" area to a screener only to actually experience having that area screened more aggressively and painfully than normal because the screener uses the identification of a painful area as an excuse the traveler may be hiding something there.
I will state again, if you experience something other than what the video outlines, then you should file a complaint locally, ask for an STSO or TSM, or file a complaint at one of the Official TSA sites. The only way that the organization can follow up on things like this, is if they know about it.

The problem is, the passenger voluntarily surrenders the item. TSA does not confiscate, the individual is supposed to give the passenger options with the prohibited items (with some limitations on things like WEI). The regulations for WEI have pretty much not changed since before I came to TSA , and the 3.4-1-1 rules have been around for many years as well. The rules on realistic replica items (that simulate WEI) have not changed since before I came to TSA. These are the things that people are given options on daily. These rules have been published and in place for more than a decade in many cases. When a passenger brings these items into the checkpoint, they are still afforded the opportunity to take the item and send it to themselves, put it in a vehicle, give it to a friend or find some other way to dispose of it - voluntarily surrendering the item to TSA is the last resort.

In terms of identified sensitive areas, the TSOs are supposed to clear those areas, but we are also supposed to work with the passenger, and be conscious of the pain it can cause. There is a fine line there, and it should be something that TSOs pay close attention to. If this is not the case in your experience - please file a complaint with TSA, either locally or at one of the Official sites.

At this link, you can find the sections of TSA.gov that allow you to file complaints, positive experiences, or coordinate for you or family members that have special needs. There are also sections about contacting the media group, and even finding out about TSA Precheck if you are interested. I do not want you to think that I am brushing you off, we just have differing opinions on certain things - I want you and any other passenger to be able to effectively file complaints, compliments and to travel with as little challenge as possible. In order to improve on that experience, we need folks to file these complaints and comments, so we can address them through proper channels.
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Old Sep 6, 2018, 7:48 am
  #783  
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@TSA Administrator David Pekoske: "I don't think any of our officers groped any passengers…
Why would a traveler expect TSA to take their groping complaint seriously when the TSA Administrator has already determined that TSA screeners don't grope passengers. Every employee in the TSA chain of command will be aware of the Administrators position on this matter and they will be very unlikely to rock the boat. The public already knows that TSA lacks integrity in its actions towards travelers forcing the public to seek other means of redress.

The core problem is having the offending agency investigate complaints against themselves. There is a vested interest in not making the agency look bad or doing something where the public loses trust in the process. I think that trust was lost years ago but there are still some who have their heads buried deeply in the sand.

Last edited by Boggie Dog; Sep 6, 2018 at 3:23 pm
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Old Sep 6, 2018, 10:23 am
  #784  
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
I will state again, if you experience something other than what the video outlines, then you should file a complaint locally, ask for an STSO or TSM, or file a complaint at one of the Official TSA sites. The only way that the organization can follow up on things like this, is if they know about it.
When I have encountered a problem (including the time I asked for the police to be called), I have always been told one of two things: the person talking to me is a 'supervisor' or no supervisors are currently available. As of three years ago, there was no way to file a complaint locally (because I don't consider talking to a 'supervisor' with one stripe to be 'filing a claim'. I doubt that things have changed - at least at that airport.

Originally Posted by gsoltso
The problem is, the passenger voluntarily surrenders the item. TSA does not confiscate, the individual is supposed to give the passenger options with the prohibited items (with some limitations on things like WEI). The regulations for WEI have pretty much not changed since before I came to TSA , and the 3.4-1-1 rules have been around for many years as well. The rules on realistic replica items (that simulate WEI) have not changed since before I came to TSA. These are the things that people are given options on daily. These rules have been published and in place for more than a decade in many cases. When a passenger brings these items into the checkpoint, they are still afforded the opportunity to take the item and send it to themselves, put it in a vehicle, give it to a friend or find some other way to dispose of it - voluntarily surrendering the item to TSA is the last resort.
(bolding mine)

Wrong. On more than one occasion, I have not been given the opportunity to take the item being confiscated back outside security for disposal. When my medical nitroglycerine pills were confiscated, I absolutely was not given the opportunity to leave with my pills. When the episode was finally over, the suit was holding the bottle and tossing it up and down. I never saw my pills actually put in a checkpoint trashcan. On other occasions, the confiscated item has been set aside on a shelf instead of being dumped in the nearby trashcan.

Originally Posted by gsoltso
In terms of identified sensitive areas, the TSOs are supposed to clear those areas, but we are also supposed to work with the passenger, and be conscious of the pain it can cause. There is a fine line there, and it should be something that TSOs pay close attention to. If this is not the case in your experience - please file a complaint with TSA, either locally or at one of the Official sites.
I've learned the hard way - it was a TSO who explained to me that that bad guys hide contraband in 'sensitive areas' and that's why you are trained to apply extra pressure or to try to insist on a visual, even if it requires pulling apart sterile dressings.

File a complaint? And get labelled a 'domestic troublemaker'?


Originally Posted by gsoltso

At this link, you can find the sections of TSA.gov that allow you to file complaints, positive experiences, or coordinate for you or family members that have special needs. There are also sections about contacting the media group, and even finding out about TSA Precheck if you are interested. I do not want you to think that I am brushing you off, we just have differing opinions on certain things - I want you and any other passenger to be able to effectively file complaints, compliments and to travel with as little challenge as possible. In order to improve on that experience, we need folks to file these complaints and comments, so we can address them through proper channels.
As someone who has special needs family members and has who works extensively with special needs folks, here's some unsolicited feedback for TSA to ignore. I doubt TSA keeps track of 'TSA Cares' specialists and what they actually don't do. Most of the time (depends on airport?), you can't even get someone on the line. If you do, be prepared to be stood up if you can talk someone into actually meeting you at the checkpoint. All they really want to do is serve as a TSA talking point - they can't actually be relied on to do any work.
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Old Sep 6, 2018, 12:36 pm
  #785  
 
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I've learned the hard way - it was a TSO who explained to me that that bad guys hide contraband in 'sensitive areas' and that's why you are trained to apply extra pressure or to try to insist on a visual, even if it requires pulling apart sterile dressings.

File a complaint? And get labelled a 'domestic troublemaker'?
LOL - and what exactly is going to be hidden behind bandages that is a threat to the plane? Are we still worried about a single knife taking down an entire airplane? What a country we live in.
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Old Sep 6, 2018, 1:59 pm
  #786  
 
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Originally Posted by ethernal
LOL - and what exactly is going to be hidden behind bandages that is a threat to the plane? Are we still worried about a single knife taking down an entire airplane? What a country we live in.
Sadly, the TSA seems to be worried about that very thing.
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Old Sep 6, 2018, 2:27 pm
  #787  
 
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
When the TSA Administrator isn't even open to the question what hope is there of any traveler complaint being honestly investigated?

All I can say is, Mr. Administrator, it happened at Denver!
Exactly. This guy is either a liar or incompetent. How could he not know about what happened there. There is no way TSA can clean its own house if this is the behavior of the the person at the head of it.

Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
... there are still some who have their heads buried deeply in the sand.
I think their heads are buried in some other location.
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Last edited by TWA884; Sep 8, 2018 at 10:12 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts by the same member; please use the multi-quote function
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Old Sep 6, 2018, 3:25 pm
  #788  
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Originally Posted by nachtnebel
I think their heads are buried in some other location.
I have to temper what I really want to say.

It should be understood that most people don't fly every week or even more than perhaps 2 or 3 times each year so they have no real idea of what happens.
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Old Sep 7, 2018, 3:58 pm
  #789  
 
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
I will state again, if you experience something other than what the video outlines, then you should file a complaint locally, ask for an STSO or TSM, or file a complaint at one of the Official TSA sites. The only way that the organization can follow up on things like this, is if they know about it.
I truly believe you are sincere in your believe that "the organization can follow up on things like this", but it runs counter to my experience.

Here is one experience I had. After going through the normal screening process (WTMD) I was pulled aside for additional screening. I was not given the option of private screening. Rather I was ordered into a room for private screening against my expressed desire. During the "screening process" (groping) the TSO rubbed my genitals with the front of his hand while also making gratuitous comments about my muscle tone. Those comments were totally inappropriate and uncomfortable to me in the extreme. I did just as you suggest. I filed a complaint with the TSA and with my representative. The TSA's response basically boiled down to "so what". No one from TSA contacted me to gather any additional information, no one ever addressed what were clearly inappropriate comments by the screener, No one ever explained why the groping had to be done away from the public view. Not a single person at the TSA gave a damn. In short there was no follow up worth of the term.

If you want to hear about the lack of interest when I had screeners attempt to steal from my bag let me know and I'll post about those incidents, too.

In short, filing complaints may provide some cathartic relief but nothing else will come of it.
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Old Sep 7, 2018, 5:26 pm
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Originally Posted by T-the-B
I truly believe you are sincere in your believe that "the organization can follow up on things like this", but it runs counter to my experience.

Here is one experience I had. After going through the normal screening process (WTMD) I was pulled aside for additional screening. I was not given the option of private screening. Rather I was ordered into a room for private screening against my expressed desire. During the "screening process" (groping) the TSO rubbed my genitals with the front of his hand while also making gratuitous comments about my muscle tone. Those comments were totally inappropriate and uncomfortable to me in the extreme. I did just as you suggest. I filed a complaint with the TSA and with my representative. The TSA's response basically boiled down to "so what". No one from TSA contacted me to gather any additional information, no one ever addressed what were clearly inappropriate comments by the screener, No one ever explained why the groping had to be done away from the public view. Not a single person at the TSA gave a damn. In short there was no follow up worth of the term.

If you want to hear about the lack of interest when I had screeners attempt to steal from my bag let me know and I'll post about those incidents, too.

In short, filing complaints may provide some cathartic relief but nothing else will come of it.
You experience is more typical than not.
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Old Sep 8, 2018, 6:20 am
  #791  
 
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The Rutherford Institute has taken on the case of the 13 year old female molested by TSA and her father's aggressive "pat down" referenced in this comment:

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30109601-post717.html

When McAdams commented that this was a sick way to make a living, the TSA agent got on his radio and summoned police, asserting that McAdams had interfered with an investigation by moving during the pat-down. An airport police officer arrived and upon speaking to McAdams quickly determined that no charges were warranted.
TSA doesn't do investigations; they do passenger screening.

https://tinyurl.com/yclg8lsy
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Old Sep 8, 2018, 8:33 am
  #792  
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Originally Posted by petaluma1
The Rutherford Institute has taken on the case of the 13 year old female molested by TSA and her father's aggressive "pat down" referenced in this comment:

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/30109601-post717.html



TSA doesn't do investigations; they do passenger screening.

https://tinyurl.com/yclg8lsy
It's my opinion that TSA screeners let the title "officer" and the fake cop badges go to their heads. I believe this is evidenced by the way travelers are treated by far too many TSA screeners. I also believe that TSA has no desire or intent to clean up its problems so it will take some successful legal actions to force that change. The obvious problem is few individuals have the resources needed to successfully fight TSA in the courts. Without support or direct action by interested advocates the public is likely saddled with this TSA for the foreseeable future.
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Old Sep 8, 2018, 8:57 pm
  #793  
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Originally Posted by gsoltso
The problem is, the passenger voluntarily surrenders the item. TSA does not confiscate, the individual is supposed to give the passenger options with the prohibited items (with some limitations on things like WEI). The regulations for WEI have pretty much not changed since before I came to TSA , and the 3.4-1-1 rules have been around for many years as well. The rules on realistic replica items (that simulate WEI) have not changed since before I came to TSA. These are the things that people are given options on daily. These rules have been published and in place for more than a decade in many cases. When a passenger brings these items into the checkpoint, they are still afforded the opportunity to take the item and send it to themselves, put it in a vehicle, give it to a friend or find some other way to dispose of it - voluntarily surrendering the item to TSA is the last resort.
The passenger usually does have have realistic options at the checkpoint. It's a choice between giving up the item or the flight--and the flight is almost always more expensive. That's not voluntary. Contrast that with what happened to me in China--I had a TSA-legal multi-tool, apparently they don't allow tools, period. They had mailers there, you could stick it in one, pay them cash and send it on it's way.

And while the rules have had very few changes the problem comes from the interpretation of the rules. We've had people on here who lost car keys because the key could extend from a base--looks sort of like a hidden knife. However, it's a car key, it's no greater a threat than any other car key. It's just a way of protecting one's pockets etc from the key.

Or consider the person on here who lost their medicine to TSA because it was "explosive". Nitroglycerin at heart-medicine doses couldn't blow up the bottle, let alone the airplane--not that you could actually make it detonate anyway.

And complaining is just asking for retaliation, we know it's not going to do any good.
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Old Sep 8, 2018, 10:11 pm
  #794  
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Exclamation Moderator's Note: Topic Drift

Folks,

This thread is about invasive TSA pat downs, not confiscation of arguably prohibited items. We have plenty of threads discussing the latter.

Please get back on subject. Future off-topic messages will be summarily deleted without further warning.

Thank you for understanding,

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Old Sep 9, 2018, 11:31 am
  #795  
 
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Why would a traveler expect TSA to take their groping complaint seriously when the TSA Administrator has already determined that TSA screeners don't grope passengers. Every employee in the TSA chain of command will be aware of the Administrators position on this matter and they will be very unlikely to rock the boat. The public already knows that TSA lacks integrity in its actions towards travelers forcing the public to seek other means of redress.

The core problem is having the offending agency investigate complaints against themselves. There is a vested interest in not making the agency look bad or doing something where the public loses trust in the process. I think that trust was lost years ago but there are still some who have their heads buried deeply in the sand.
If you have filed a complaint with TSA, and feel the response has not been adequate, you can always contact the DHS OIG, and move forward from there. Investigations have to start somewhere, and I would ask that you file with TSA to start, and if you do not get satisfaction, move to DHS - above that, the next step is contacting elected officials directly (and as always, YMMV in that scenario).

Originally Posted by ethernal
LOL - and what exactly is going to be hidden behind bandages that is a threat to the plane? Are we still worried about a single knife taking down an entire airplane? What a country we live in.
There are a number of items that can be hidden behind bandages, slings, and just about anywhere that someone would like to get creative on their person. Personally, I do not worry about someone taking a plane down with a single knife - however, the regulations still stat that knives are a no-go.

Last edited by TWA884; Sep 9, 2018 at 3:09 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts by the same member
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