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"Sterilizing" electronic equipment before coming thru CBP?

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Old Mar 6, 17, 9:30 am
  #46
 
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That might be a little complex, but a combination of PIN + passcode would get around the 5th amendment issue. (In the US biometrics such as fingerprints can be compelled, but not thoughts like a memorized passphrase)
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Old Mar 6, 17, 12:54 pm
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Originally Posted by greggarious View Post
The iPhone has a "wipe after 10 tries" setting, but they can back up your phone and then try 10 tries on millions of virtual images of your phone in parallel
Can it be done? Backing up a locked iphone without unlocking it?
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Old Mar 6, 17, 2:42 pm
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Originally Posted by WilcoRoger View Post
Can it be done? Backing up a locked iphone without unlocking it?
Yes. But there is the complication of a hardware aspect, but that too is not insurmountable. Then you just get to cost in time, skill and money to pull it off. Strong passcodes really do matter in frustrating brute force attacks on cloned sets.

Last edited by GUWonder; Mar 6, 17 at 2:48 pm
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Old Mar 6, 17, 4:06 pm
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wiping off phone or computer will probably raise red flags more than anything else...

dozens of years ago, back in my high school days, I was a horny teenager. I barely get passing grades because I didn't care. What I did care about was getting laid. A lot. (something which I would live to regret later for different reasons)

Anyway, I would "entertain" a girl and immediately clean up my bed, to avoid my parents' suspicions. Eventually, my parents caught on and realized that whenever my bed was clean, I must had a girl there that afternoon.
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Old Mar 6, 17, 9:24 pm
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Originally Posted by FredAnderssen View Post
I'm not sure why you think this. The whole point of the discussion is limited fourth amendment protections at the border. If CBP can force you to unlock your phone/tablet/computer, then what's to stop them from forcing you to unlock your favorite password protected cloud or password manager program? After all, the juicy stuff they're looking for is more likely to be stored somewhere else, under lock and key, on your smartphone.
Customs has docs that clearly states they have right to examine your electronic items, which, is definitely arguable if you can stand up for your rights and potentially want to sit in an airport for 6-12 hrs.

But I think its a different story if they come to you asking for stuff NOT on your phone. Whats ON your phone vs whats ON the cloud is a bit different...
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Old Mar 7, 17, 10:16 am
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Originally Posted by buylowsellhigh View Post
Customs has docs that clearly states they have right to examine your electronic items, which, is definitely arguable if you can stand up for your rights and potentially want to sit in an airport for 6-12 hrs.

But I think its a different story if they come to you asking for stuff NOT on your phone. Whats ON your phone vs whats ON the cloud is a bit different...
They can examine unlocked devices. They generally don't keep Americans at the airport for 6-12 hours for refusing to unlock them. They will either seize it or not seize it, probably not unless they have some very strong reason to believe you are involved in imminent criminal activity.
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Old Mar 8, 17, 1:42 am
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Originally Posted by buylowsellhigh View Post

But I think its a different story if they come to you asking for stuff NOT on your phone. Whats ON your phone vs whats ON the cloud is a bit different...
I think you misunderstand how cloud storage works. Often it is seamlessly integrated into the phone/tablets operating system. Pictures, Facebook messenger data, e-mail messages and the like seamlessly spring forth when connected to Wifi or a cellular network. Certainly things like documents stored in a Dropbox-like account could be seen as off-site storage, but even there, the seamless integration with your operating system and thumbnails as placeholders makes the question of where your physical phone ends and where your "cloud phone" begins interesting.
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Old Mar 8, 17, 3:09 am
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Removing the relevant apps from your phone would go a long way solving the cloud "issue" - no app, no synchronization, no data on the phone/tablet.

If paranoid, have two apple accounts set up. One that you actually use (and sync your data, backups, contacts, etc) and one that you don't and have only mahjong and solitaire . Cleanse your phone before boarding, log out of your daily use account, log in to the alternative account.

Relog in, reinstall apps and sync again later.
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Old Mar 14, 17, 1:09 am
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Originally Posted by FlyTrey View Post
If it is an iPhone - if you delete it, it's gone forever.
According to this article, this is not the case as forensic software can access all deleted photos, messages, etc.
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Old Mar 14, 17, 6:49 am
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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...h-your-n732746

American Citizens: U.S. Border Agents Can Search Your Cellphone


"They said if I need a lawyer, then I must be guilty of something," said Elsharkawi, and Egyptian-born Muslim and naturalized U.S. citizen. After four hours of questioning in detention, he unlocked his smartphone and, after a search, was eventually released. Elsharkawi said he intends to sue the Department of Homeland Security.

The article linked above is truly frightening. Apparently the courts have rendered the 4th Amendment moot.
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Old Mar 14, 17, 7:13 am
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Courts have not rendered the 4th Amendment moot. The statement by Ms. Callahan that "the Fourth Amendment, even for U.S. citizens, doesn't apply at the border" is a grossly inaccurate, lazy and untrue statement.

Law enforcement officers are prohibited by the Fourth Amendment from conducting unreasonable searches, either at the border or away from the border.

However, courts have ruled that certain types of searches are reasonable under the Fourth Amendment at the border, like searches of your luggage, and on the spot searches of any unlocked electronic devices.

The guy who refused to hand the CBP officer his phone was wrong, just like you would be wrong if you crossed a border and refused to hand the CBP officer your luggage.

However, there is no obligation to unlock your phone for them. No American should voluntarily unlock his or her phone for a CBP officer, just like no American should ever consent to a search of his house or car by a police officer.

These articles all refer to CBP officers "demanding" phone passwords, but the CBP internal records will say that in each case the traveler voluntarily entered the password of his own freewill.
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Old Mar 14, 17, 7:40 am
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog View Post
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...h-your-n732746

American Citizens: U.S. Border Agents Can Search Your Cellphone





The article linked above is truly frightening. Apparently the courts have rendered the 4th Amendment moot.
It's best to make it difficult for the government to too easily snoop into the lives of free persons. When crossing the US border, that means not handing over access passcodes for encrypted devices/information. CBP can take the device and search it -- they can even copy and try to crack into its contents -- but they can assume my passcodes won't be given. They can also assume that I make a practice of wiping clean my travel device for my cross-border trips.

Originally Posted by guflyer View Post
According to this article, this is not the case as forensic software can access all deleted photos, messages, etc.
That depends. They can't always access all that deleted information. And even if in some magical world they could access all the deleted data on devices transported across borders, let's just say there are ways to use devices that access information that doesn't get stored on the devices being transported. We still have ways to frustrate nosy busybodies.
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Old Mar 14, 17, 9:18 am
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Originally Posted by jphripjah View Post
Courts have not rendered the 4th Amendment moot. The statement by Ms. Callahan that "the Fourth Amendment, even for U.S. citizens, doesn't apply at the border" is a grossly inaccurate, lazy and untrue statement.

Law enforcement officers are prohibited by the Fourth Amendment from conducting unreasonable searches, either at the border or away from the border.

However, courts have ruled that certain types of searches are reasonable under the Fourth Amendment at the border, like searches of your luggage, and on the spot searches of any unlocked electronic devices.

The guy who refused to hand the CBP officer his phone was wrong, just like you would be wrong if you crossed a border and refused to hand the CBP officer your luggage.

However, there is no obligation to unlock your phone for them. No American should voluntarily unlock his or her phone for a CBP officer, just like no American should ever consent to a search of his house or car by a police officer.

These articles all refer to CBP officers "demanding" phone passwords, but the CBP internal records will say that in each case the traveler voluntarily entered the password of his own freewill.
The 4th might not be totally moot but it certainly seems that way. I honestly don't understand where the courts found the carve outs that allow any kind of search without cause.

I am of the opinion that if a person is going to be crossing the border, particularly on a regular basis, that having safe electronic devices that can be turned over without concern would be a good position to take. I would be very concerned about what spyware government could/would load on any device that is taken out of my sight. I certainly have nothing to hide but I also don't think government should have carte blanch to search my personal records without cause. Stated in the article I referenced, "They said if I need a lawyer, then I must be guilty of something," is concerning to me. I think most lawyers would recommend to not talk to police without counsel yet the police are assuming guilt if someone takes such a position. Also the police can be dishonest, lie, or do other things to make it seem that not cooperating fully is criminal in itself. The mood at the border seems to have moved to a very adversarial encounter in recent years at least to some number of citizens and visitors attempting to enter the country.

I think its time to reel in not only CBP but all other federal agencies.
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Old Mar 14, 17, 9:39 am
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"One of the officers calls out to me and says, 'Hey, give me your phone,'" recalled Shibly. "And I said, 'No, because I already went through this.'"

The officer asked a second time..

Within seconds, he was surrounded: one man held his legs, another squeezed his throat from behind. A third reached into his pocket, pulling out his phone. McCormick watched her boyfriend's face turn red as the officer's chokehold tightened.
Here
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Old Mar 14, 17, 9:49 am
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Originally Posted by petaluma1 View Post
There are some interesting numbers in there:

Some 5,000 such searches in all of 2015 recorded by DHS; then some 25,000 such searches in 2016; and then in just one very short month of February 2017, DHS does some 5,000 such searches?

That means we may be looking at over 55k such US border searches in 2017.

Should we take this as a sign that the US government has been buying lots of software/hardware (even crooked stuff) to pry even further into the daily lives of ordinary US citizens? Either way, there are plenty of other signs that 1984 was off by a few decades.
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