Problems of crossing into the US for former citizens?
 

So I am thinking of giving up my US citizenship. It's a complicated decision with a lot of trade-offs and I really don't want to get into the details here since it can quickly devolve the conversation. What I am specifically wondering though is if anyone knows if there are any problems with entering the US as a former US citizen? Would I just be treated like any other ESTA traveller or subject to additional scrutiny? Hoping someone has some sort of experience as a data point in my decision making.

It would be a relinquishment of citizenship and not a renunciation so my name wouldn't go on the list if that matters.

This is a very timely question for a growing number of US dual-citizens and those in a position to be dual-citizens -- as many such persons resident beyond the US are getting into family/spousal conflicts and/or are being denied service because of things such at FATCA compliance or other US Treasury/IRS-related hassles (even when the IRS/US Treasury has been paid in full for the person's entire history of being subject to IRS/Treasury rules).

As a matter of practice for travel to/from the US, the outcomes in part depend on whether or not the person is born in the US. When it comes to VWP country citizens who were former U.S. citizens who happened to acquire US citizenship as a result of conditions applicable to them at their birth outside of the US, I've seen such persons apply for an ESTA and get in and out of the US under the VWP without any extraordinary peep from CBP. However, if place of birth is in the US, the chances of hassles during the trip and on US arrivals (and sometimes even US departures) skyrocket -- much the same goes also for those who were never US citizens but happened to be born in the US.

Can you expand on this? What sort of hassles? Technically the law here requires I renounce my US citizenship, though it is generally unenforced so I could have that to fall back on as an answer. I was personally born in Virginia, so it would be an issue.

Just out of curiosity, are there any other cases other than children of diplomats where someone born in the US is not a citizen?

Airline reps or contractors might see the US place of birth and insist that you have a US passport or badger you on why you don't for the trip.

CBP has made stinks about such situations too -- anything from "you still need a US passport" rants to "why would you give up this up" suspicions/paranoia that result in secondary examinations that eat up a lot of time.

Other than diplomats, the only other category would be if a child were born in the US to a parent representing a foreign military powers of some sort in a hostile action in US territory over which the U.S. had no control at the time of the birth. Can't recall a single such US instance for a non-diplomat's child, at least not in my lifetime or that of anyone I've known to work at State since the UN came into being.

Probably not looking for this, but we still have US-born nationals who are not US citizens; now mostly -- if not, by now, just exclusively -- those of American Samoan heritage. For them we have US passports that are for non-citizen US nationals. This can be tricky sometimes as in if the non-citizen US national applies for participation in a program that requires US citizenship rather than merely US nationality. [US citizenship is, quite obviously, a very large subset of US nationality.]

@LupineChemist: To clarify, are you intending to become stateless, or to take a different citizenship (if yes, which) and simultaneously relinquish your US citizenship?

If you're stateless, there are all kinds of problems you'll be running into. If you just change your citizenship to a country with which the US is on relatively good terms, I don't see why there'd be a problem.

I would be relinquishing upon acquisition of Spanish citizenship. Mostly because it's free if you do it upon getting a new passport.

I'm curious. What is the difference between relinquishing your US citizenship and renouncing it, in the eyes of the US government?

I ask because I, too, am considering renouncing my US citizenship once I get Cypriot citizenship (a few years down the road).

What is free? Relinquishing US citizenship? Please elaborate and cite the appropriate state dept. rules. Thanks

The scenario: You're a native-born US citizen who gives up your citizenship for whatever reason. You then want to come back to the US on your foreign passport. Why would ICE hassle you?

Answer: Because you could very easily end up staying. A lot of people want to renounce their citizenship so they don't have to pay US income tax. But, they don't really want to leave the US, they just don't want to pay taxes. So you renounce your citizenship, hand in your US passport, leave the country, come back in, and never leave. You're now a super illegal alien. No one would suspect that you're not a citizen, and if you're of the self-employed sort, no one would ever be the wiser.

It s:)unds to me that in this case when the OP acquires Spanish citizenship he's required by Spain to relinquish/renounce his us citizenship. Despite anything he may do or say to Spain at the time that won't satisfy the US government who will still consider him a US citizen. Renouncing US citizenship is not very easy and is rather expensive.

From the US State Dept. (linked above):
I have no idea what this means with regard to Spain.

I think you are way, way oversimplifying this. People who renounce are generally not tax cheats, they are often tired of being caught up in a bureaucratic mess with ever draconian fines for minor oversights. The most likely people to renounce have been living overseas, often with family ties overseas, for a long long time and have little if any connection to the USA. If the USA didn't impose an onerous burden on them they would problaby not give up their citizenship but the USA chooses to be unduly harsh in their treatment of expats so many are forced to give up their citizenship. It's a shame that our government treats people who live overseas as potential criminals rather than potential ambassadors.

Yes, basically if you notify the consulate prior to getting your new citizenship it counts as an expatriating act according to the law. Relinquishing is any way you become no longer a US citizen. Renouncement is only a specific way to relinquish and is the one with the fees.

Here it is is from the horse's mouth:
http://travel.state.gov/content/trav...tionality.html

When you renounce your citizenship, you get a Certificate of Loss of Nationality. You should carry it with you to prove that you are not a US citizen when traveling in the US, because without it, anyone whose foreign passport lists the US as place of birth is assumed to be a citizen.

I seriously doubt most acts of giving up US citizenship are done to avoid paying taxes while still wanting to live in the US. Most attempts to give up US citizenship seem to be done to avoid future headaches with family, business partners, employers, service providers and/or additional paperwork. Those are more common grounds for expatriation than avoiding payment of taxes.

Most adult US citizens abroad don't owe the IRS money, even as they mostly do owe paperwork to the IRS/Treasury.

Renunciation of US citizenship is a different process than relinquishment of US citizenship; and the consequences of each path to losing US citizenship are not all the same -- even as both result in a person becoming a former US citizen.

Many thousands of persons with foreign passports listing the US as place of birth are neither US citizens nor assumed (by the U.S.) to be US citizens.

There are reports of CBP officers assuming that people born in the US must be citizens. You cited one yourself a few posts earlier in this thread.

Just goes to show that the CBP isn't infallible. Keep in mind that these are the same characters who sometimes assume a US passport isn't prima facie evidence of US citizenship (and/or nationality) of the person whose picture is in the valid US passport.

Still, the U.S. doesn't assume that everyone with a foreign passport listing a US place of birth is a US citizen. To that purpose, the US has invested resources to make sure that many such persons are not to be treated by it as US citizens.

Could you give an example of how this works?

I know a couple of US-born people who have successfully relinquished their US citizenship, and were not made to pay any money to the US as they were not renouncing. One of them says she does not get hassled when entering the US (due to ignorance of the rules) because her place of birth is a place which also exists outside the US, and it is just listed as that in her passport. The other was born in New York and has not been hassled either but he tries to avoid travel to the US.

I think that if you want to relinquish your US citizenship because you genuinely do not have ties to the US and would only visit for the same reason as a regular citizen of your new country, then you should do so without worrying about problems entering as a tourist.

While, the link you provided does not specifically state that there are fees involved, it also does not state that there are no fees involved. I haven't looked at all the code sections referenced in the link, but I am highly suspicious that you can renounce your citizenship at no cost. And I do not really see any difference between relinquishing and renouncing. Have you discussed this matter with a lawyer?

As with those who have a work history with State's OLA, I have no doubts that some relinquishing of US citizenship involves no fees being due for relinquishing citizenship. I also have no doubt that the consequences for relinquishing US citizenship are not a perfect copy of the consequences of renunciation of US citizenship. About the above, I have no doubt that current or former legal and/or national security-related staff working on such matters for State or other parts of the USG have this understanding too.

I can't confirm the accuracy of the tax lawyer advice that was relevant to the following situation, but at least a couple of tax lawyers working for or commenting about Tina Turner relinquishing US citizenship made representations that the IRS/Treasury compliance consequences were different for a relinquishing of US citizenship than for a renunciation of US citizenship.

So, would it be useful to ask the people at the US embassy in Nicosia what the difference between relinquishing and renouncing US citizenship is and how one goes about either (though I think I clearly understand the renunciation process and associated fees and tax requirements)? Somehow I have my doubts they would have any answers for me, especially since they couldn't even correctly renew my US passport 2 years ago.

You can ask. However, IIRC, ACS and others at US Embassies/Consulates are generally directed to steer people to retain their own legal advisors on such matters. They do provide info about the consequences of losing citizenship but, for informational purposes, they don't generally segment the particular consequences by the various paths of losing citizenship (and consequently being recognized as having lost US citizenship) and go into the nuances of matters in this area. A big reason the costs for renunciation was jacked up because these loss of citizenship reviews go back to DC for more extensive legal reviews and because the volume of requests and work related to each request involving this have increased a lot.

Which is understandable, given that the 14th Amendment confers citizenship automatically upon anyone (with very few exceptions upheld by the Supreme Court such as foreign diplomats or hostile forces) born on US soil, regardless of the citizenship of their parents.

Of course that doesn't mean that people born here never renounce US citizenship.

The only way you "relinquish" US citizenship without cost is if you are discovered to have committed fraud in acquiring it in the first place, or the US government decides to do what they have never done once in all of US history, and persuade a court that you have committed an "expatriating act," such as serving in another country's armed forces. "Relinquishing" in these circumstances is not voluntary.

If you wish to voluntarily lose your citizenship, "renunciation" is the only option, and with the latest revision to the consular fee schedule, it now costs over 2500 USD. There is no way to request to "relinquish" rather than "renounce".

That's exactly the issue. The overwhelming majority of people with a U.S. birthplace are citizens, due to the US use of juris soli in the form of the 14th Amendment. The U.S., like most countries, also requires its citizens to use their US passports on entering the country, even if they have one or more other valid passports. Therefore an arriving passenger bearing a foreign passport specifying a US birth place would appropriately raise some questions in the immigration officer's mind. However, U.S. citizen born outside the USA who presented themselves at a port of entry with a foreign passport would not ordinarily raise such concerns.

They've done it more than once; Vance v. Terrazas in 1980 and Richards v. Secretary of State in 1985.

(Current policy and Action and Deltamar v. Rich (1991), are more stringent on the intent factor, but if you really mean to give up US citizenship then intent is clearly not the issue....)

Vance v Terrazas had the opposite effect, voiding laws that provided for automatic loss of citizenship, and establishing that citizenship could only be lost if that was the citizen's intent, whilst retaining some wriggle rom in the form of acknowledging that actions other than signing a form renouncing citizenship might form the basis for demonstration of intent.

Richards was a narrower case and in any event has been superseded by changes in both US and foreign policy. Canada no longer requires passport applicants with other nationalities to sign a renunciation statement, and US policy no longer seeks to use such statements as a basis for denying a U.S. passport.

So whilst in theory there are still other means to get rid of your US citizenship that don't involve a lengthy bureaucratic process and a 2500 dollar fee, in practice it's unlikely to happen unless you show up on YouTube beheading a western journalist whilst shouting "Allahu Akbar," in which case you're probably likely to lose more than your passport, and they may decide to let you retain your citizenship for the duration of your life without parole sentence in any event. Given the choice, most people, I believe would go for for the fee and form option, so whilst you are correct in the theoretical legal sense, in practice there is no alternative path to losing your citizenship other than renunciation.

Just curious as to what type of visa would be issued to the former citizen to allow them to turn up and ask for entry?

Well, in this case we're talking about a p:otential Spanish citizen so it would be an ESTA and not a visa.

Often if you want to stand for public office then you have to renounce your foreign citizenship, eg this (US born) former Australian State Premier.

Yes, but it really depends on the nature of the trip and the details of the purpose. The U.S. does issue visas in the Spanish passports of Spanish citizens for a variety of reasons, not all of which involve an intent to reside in the US. Not all trips by visitors using a passport of a VWP country can use the VWP for admissibility to the US; and even if some such persons could use the VWP, some may not want to use the VWP.

Honestly, If I wanted to go back to live/work I would just get a green card. Seeing as how I have living immediate family in the US. I can also leave and give up the residency and fiscal requirements much easier.

I guess it may come as a surprise to you, but people don't just get green cards. You can try to get one either through job, investment, family ties or a DV lottery. Actually, as a US-born person, you are probably not qualified for a DV lottery.

This is absolutely not true. People regularly relinquish without having to pay. If you VOLUNTARILY commit an expatriating act WITH THE INTENT of relinquishing U.S. citizenship, you can lose it at no cost. The most common method is to voluntarily become naturalised in another country with the intent of losing your U.S. citizenship. The State Department has a questionnaire (form DS-4079) that has to be filled out which helps them determine your intent. Among the questions are whether you own any property in the United States, if you hold any professional licenses from the United States, whether you have used your U.S. Passport, voted in any U.S. elections, paid U.S. taxes and whether you have visited the U.S. since you committed your expatriating act, in this case became a naturalised citizen of another country. There are countless former citizens who have, and continue to, relinquish their U.S. citizenship without having to pay the fee to renounce. The key is once you have committed the potential relinquishing act, do not do anything that would make you look like a U.S. citizen (e.g. travel on your U.S. passport, vote in a U.S. election, pay U.S. taxes). If you have any of those things after you have committed the relinquishing act then you are out of luck and have to pay the fee to renounce.

The Issac Brock society in Canada is a great resource if you are considering renouncing or relinquishing. Among the resources are testimonials about the relinquishing and renunciation experiences from former Americans for various U.S. Embassies and Consulates around the world. Many of them are able to obtain their Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) without having to pay the renunciation fee.