US No-Fly List
 

Some of you may be interested in reading the No Fly List Manual.

Hopefully this new evidence will expose government perjury in the ongoing litigation surrounding the no fly list.

I think this is the primary source:

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/a...3/blacklisted/

Don't be silly. This is serious stuff. One of these would be far more appropriate. :)

Here's the actual PDF. (144 MB)

I skimmed most of it; it is actually kind of boring. But good info to have out in the open.

^^^^

Agree, sunlight seems to be the best medicine, for the people to actually know what they're paying their government to do. Secret courts and secret lists have no place in a free, democratic society. They are a reversion to the age of absolute monarchs.

In this context, I highly recommend Trevor Paglen's Blank Spots on the Map, where he describes the "black world" created and expanded since world war II, with an interesting observation that being hidden (and thus unaccountable) seems to be accompanied by abuse and lawlessness.

It's far past time to tear away most of the "top secret" veil that serves mainly to keep the US citizenry unjustifiably in the dark about much of what the executive branch is doing.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/a...tch-commander/ has been deemed by the USG to be the product of a new national security establishment leaker -- and not Snowden --who has kindly attempted to show the country how out of control the US aviation blacklists have gotten under the current operators of what is the modern-day US equivalent of the notorious Star Chamber.

The link above also indicates some of what I've mentioned previously: the US uses offshoring and outsourcing -- but not only -- to also crack into foreign government and foreign commercial databases and come up with additions for US government blacklists.

Should we expect DHS/TSA word games about how this https://firstlook.org/theintercept/d...ishments-2013/ is not relevant to the US aviation blacklists? ;)

DTI Strategic Accomplishments 2013 direct PDF link (6MB)

Interesting that much of this is classified, not just SSI.

There is more to come. The real juicy US stuff is "classified" (and has never been SSI).

There is a whiff in the air making the rounds in the DC-area that -- perhaps unlike with torture -- the government is still at the margin where a massive surveillance state either survives for the duration of our Union or gets sort of contained now before it becomes the de facto norm for the duration of our Union. As that scent gets picked up more and more within the government and government contractor community, "leaker" of this classified information will be followed by another whistleblowing party ... unless and until the massive surveillance state becomes effective enough to discover the wannabe-leakers before they acquire and disseminate the information, unless and until that scent is snuffed out one way or another.

The government is going to end up realizing the merits of PPT-type presentations of classified info come with some complications. Not like all in government have the attention span to make a move to relying upon typewriters again anywhere close to generally practical for the million+ with government "security clearances" for "classified" info. ;)

The Administration is working on new ways to deal with the no-fly list and how people get dealt with when appealing placement on the list?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us...list.html?_r=0

This unfortunate situation can mostly all end if the US stops the TSA from obsessing about passenger ID checks and instead fixes itself to focus on contraband weapons/explosives/incendiaries interdiction. Resources wasted on passenger ID checks and no-fly lists are resources that aren't being used to more effectively stop weapons/explosives/incendiaries from being smuggled onto planes.

Given we have an Administration that loves blacklists

don't be surprised if this change is mostly just window-dressing. Our government believes in the following for just the government: "better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission". For we, the people, the government wants us to continue to ask -- even beg/plea -- for permission to fly. :td: :td:

I'm not saying this is a fake, but, the front page is missing the required "classifed by" and "declassify on" notations. Drafts or working papers would be marked as such.

It's not a change, it is a promise to change. He could have made changes with the stroke of a pen, but did not. Blowing smoke.

The FBI has been busting up a government contractor's life over suspicions the person is the whistleblower source about the "functioning" of the US aviation blacklists that led to some press articles and this FT thread.

http://news.yahoo.com/feds-identify-...165741571.html

No-fly list based partially on crime prediction
 

Guilty until proven innocent yet again.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ve-assessments

I don't understand how the No Fly List can be used against citizens without the protections of Due Process. Non-citizens have no absolute right to travel to the states so the process for them is likely legal but even then they should know if they are on thr NFL.

US persons include US citizens and US residents.

Persons -- citizens or not -- subject to U.S. jurisdiction ought to have due process rights in the U.S.; that or we may as well just acknowledge that secret kangaroo "courts" are the wave of the future in America.

I was thinking of people outside of the U.S. wishing to travel here. In those cases I think the NFL rules would stand.

...Why?

Does a person who is not a US citizen and is outside of the US and its territories have a right to travel to the US? I think not and inclusion on the NFL for such a person is probably easier to enforce.

I think that government should be required to state why a person is a candidate for any watch list and the individual given the opportunity to contest such nomination in a court of law before being placed on any watch list.

Simple: We, The People, allow it to happen.

It seems to me that government is doing many things not supported by the people and the courts are allowing it to continue.

What can We, the People, do to turn things around short of an armed insurrection?

I don't know...even the change in the White House didn't reverse this nonsense, despite the rhetoric. Not sure how many people are really aware of this latest revelation - I wasn't before this thread. It's really appalling though.

Then again, too many people I talk with are of the "anything for security" and/or "if you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear" mentality. So I wonder what percentage of the population would actually be OK with this.

In my wildest dreams:

1. 95% of eligible voters actually vote over a couple of election cycles for candidates of all parties who respect the Constitution.

2. Sustained political action -- more than just one Opt Out Day. That was a success because the TSA simply shut off the Cancer Boxes and declared there were no lines. Figure out a way to kill ExtortionCheck and throw the privileged back into the checkpoint proletariat.

3. Orchestrating an air-tight legal case that blows the Surveillance State wide open. It would have to take someone with a lot of money and good lawyers.

4. Economic sanctions. We really need to get serious about boycotting the airlines and put the economic squeeze on the transportation sector. They didn't necessarily cause all of this, but they can force Congress into fixing it.

It took a lot of gutsy people to start videotaping cops, but, the People have affected change. It isn't nearly done yet, but there is now a hot market for police body cams.

Back in the early 90s, VDOT took one lane of the then-three lane Dulles Toll Road and made it HOV-2. After just one day of gridlock, there was massive civil disobedience. People generally ignored the HOV-2 restrictions and overwhelmed the cops. It took an act of Congress to get the rule rescinded. But, the people prevailed.

One other thing that I think should be a general rule, the courts should defer to "the people" and not government in their decisions.

It can't. Latif v. Holder, 9th Cir. 2012, D. Or. 2013.


What can be done: sue. Most civil rights issues in the US have eventually been won in courts.

Hey! Kangaroos are peaceful, noble, intelligent, social and they move FAST. They're also seriously cute.

Don't you go disrespecting kangaroos by comparing them to the American judicial (official or otherwise) system! :p

We have been briefed on all aspects and qualifiers for the NFL. Yet my son in the military got SSSS recently and did not fit any criteria. Unless no wait, I am a tewworrist, that is why,, actually there is still a random factor.

Yeah, the random factor is a government that is out of control and completely ignores the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

And that includes TSA and its employees.

The TSA screeners -- and even the FSDs -- are not briefed on all aspects and qualifiers for the no-fly list.

Being a haraSSSSment target is very distinct from being on the NFL. I thought this distinction ought to be common knowledge amongst all TSA employees, but who knows.

There's a big difference between being on the No-Fly List and getting SSSS. But you should know that because you've been briefed on all aspects and qualifiers for the NFL.

I'm sure his TSA co-worker, the judge, has also been fully briefed on all aspects and qualifiers for the NFL.

eyecue, I will believe it is truly random when you report that you got SSSS. Or your former federal judge boss got SSSS. Or a congressman or Supreme Court justice got SSSS.

Wouldn't that make you a more dangerous passenger than the rest of us and necessitate more intense screening? Seems to me that, if one were familiar with all the aspects and qualifiers for the NFL, it would be easier for that person to avoid detection.

Mike

Agree. I can't see any reason why anyone but a special subset of TSA employees should have this information. The folks rifling bodies and bags at the airport are not processing tickets and doing background checks. There is no reason for them to have this information and every reason for them to not have it. In the wrong hands (and that includes some TSOs, as we all know), it is indeed valuable information that could be misused.

Do you have any doubt that there are people who are kept off certain hit lists in order to make sure they don't get annoyed enough to decide to spill/share the proverbial beans? Let's take it as a given that no ordinary person can blackmail/intimidate ordinary people as effectively as a government can blackmail/intermediate ordinary people. And yet relatively safe parts of the world freak out over non-state terrorist actors even as state actor terrorists are far more powerful and threatening.