Heightened security at U.S airports (and overseas?)
Jul 7, 2014, 7:38 am
#62
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: LAS
Posts: 1,279
All we need is an massive government organization that builds databases (of electronic equipment, in this case) and a company that builds comparative x-ray scanners. Problem. Solved. @:-)
New boss. Same as the old boss.
New boss. Same as the old boss.
Jul 7, 2014, 7:58 am
#63
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 642
...
TSA is, as usual, completely ignoring (or too institutionally stupid to understand) the more sophisticated threat vector of a real, completely functional device such as a laptop or tablet, with plastic explosive molded into existing interior cavities. Tablets, e-readers, and cell phones wouldn't pack much of a wallop, due to their small size, but a large desktop-replacement style laptop has plenty of space inside that can be packed with plastique while leaving the device fully functional. Additionally, such a large device could be modified by replacing the hard drive with a smaller solid state drive, freeing up additional space, and by removing most of the RAM chips, and easiest of all, removing modular optical drives. Batteries could also be modified by removing most of the cells, leaving just enough to power the device for a short period but freeing up substantial space for explosives.
Powering up devices is a fool's errand (as so many of TSA's procedures are). A far more reliable method of detecting such devices is - wait for it - the carry-on x-ray, which would show such modifications with pretty good clarity. Coupled with explosive trace detection, this would detect such devices very reliably without any additional delays, without powering up devices, and without giving TSOs such a golden opportunity to steal MORE iPads from unsuspecting travelers.
TSA is, as usual, completely ignoring (or too institutionally stupid to understand) the more sophisticated threat vector of a real, completely functional device such as a laptop or tablet, with plastic explosive molded into existing interior cavities. Tablets, e-readers, and cell phones wouldn't pack much of a wallop, due to their small size, but a large desktop-replacement style laptop has plenty of space inside that can be packed with plastique while leaving the device fully functional. Additionally, such a large device could be modified by replacing the hard drive with a smaller solid state drive, freeing up additional space, and by removing most of the RAM chips, and easiest of all, removing modular optical drives. Batteries could also be modified by removing most of the cells, leaving just enough to power the device for a short period but freeing up substantial space for explosives.
Powering up devices is a fool's errand (as so many of TSA's procedures are). A far more reliable method of detecting such devices is - wait for it - the carry-on x-ray, which would show such modifications with pretty good clarity. Coupled with explosive trace detection, this would detect such devices very reliably without any additional delays, without powering up devices, and without giving TSOs such a golden opportunity to steal MORE iPads from unsuspecting travelers.
As many have noted, simply powering on a tablet, laptop or phone would not indicate that the device was not a highly modified device made to fool others.
On a laptop, the hard drive could be removed completely and replaced with an explosive the size of the hard drive. Windows or linux could be booted from the sd card slot on the laptop. Additionally, a 6 or 8 cell battery could be modified to leave only 1 cell in place to allow sufficient power for startup and operation.
Something very similar could be done on a 10 inch tablet. Reduce battery size, remove most of electronics leaving only a very small board(e.g. raspberrry pi, image below) allowing startup.
Quoted for emphasis.
Jul 7, 2014, 8:03 am
#64
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On a laptop, the hard drive could be removed completely and replaced with an explosive the size of the hard drive. Windows or linux could be booted from the sd card slot on the laptop.
Additionally, a 6 or 8 cell battery could be modified to leave only 1 cell in place to allow sufficient power for startup and operation.
Something very similar could be done on a 10 inch tablet. Reduce battery size, remove most of electronics leaving only a very small board(e.g. raspberrry pi, image below) allowing startup.
Additionally, a 6 or 8 cell battery could be modified to leave only 1 cell in place to allow sufficient power for startup and operation.
Something very similar could be done on a 10 inch tablet. Reduce battery size, remove most of electronics leaving only a very small board(e.g. raspberrry pi, image below) allowing startup.
Jul 7, 2014, 8:18 am
#65
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2002
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From TSA's point of view, it's not a device with a dead battery. Rather, it's an electronic device that can't be demonstrated to be what it appears to be.
This is entirely consistent with TSA's view of liquid substances. Large bottles of water aren't being confiscated because they're water; they're being confiscated because there's no way to demonstrate to TSA's satisfaction that they are only water. (TSA's approach to screening liquids has been debated here ad nauseum, of course.)
Others have already pointed out here, of course, how straightforward it would be to construct a device that "powers on" for TSA inspection and still maintains its nefarious purpose. Heck, we've seen those devices in spy movies for years.
We'll have to see how this plays out. Hopefully, this effort will collapse under the weight of its own burden.
This is entirely consistent with TSA's view of liquid substances. Large bottles of water aren't being confiscated because they're water; they're being confiscated because there's no way to demonstrate to TSA's satisfaction that they are only water. (TSA's approach to screening liquids has been debated here ad nauseum, of course.)
Others have already pointed out here, of course, how straightforward it would be to construct a device that "powers on" for TSA inspection and still maintains its nefarious purpose. Heck, we've seen those devices in spy movies for years.
We'll have to see how this plays out. Hopefully, this effort will collapse under the weight of its own burden.
I keep waiting for them to decide, in the interests of national survival, to "suspend" PreCheck.
Jul 7, 2014, 8:52 am
#66
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 642
I'm interested in knowing your reasoning for this since I've operated my laptop without a hard drive. A hard drive is not needed, laptops can easily boot from usb or sd with a quick change of the bios.
Jul 7, 2014, 8:58 am
#67
Join Date: Nov 2010
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Also, there are a number of adapters that can utilize Compact Flash cards to create a cheap Solid State Drive, taking much less physical space than a laptop hard drive and leaving additional space.
It's also perfectly feasible for someone to remove some or all of the internals of a large laptop and replace them with physically smaller components from a netbook, ultrabook, or even a tablet.
Think about that for a moment - the casing and LCD of a 17" laptop, with everything taken out and replaced by the hardware from an 8" Android tablet, connected to the LCD screen and on/off button.
This stuff isn't voodoo. It's basic electronics and computer engineering, and it can be done by high school kids. Heck, I could do it myself, and I'm not great shakes at the electronics part, but I've built enough PCs that I know I could transplant a small ultrabook into a big laptop casing and leave enough room for at least one 2.5lb block of C4. And the ultrabook would be fully functional.
Jul 7, 2014, 9:25 am
#68
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What is in place to ensure data safety of the devices now confiscated by the government? Are they going to provide a power point for me to plug the device in so I can wipe the drives before I have it seized by the government? Are they going to provide space for the 30-45 minutes it will take to do that? Or do those bins the devices will go into also wipe data as well as neutralize explosives? 
Meanwhile, all those power bricks without LED's continue to sail through the checkpoints. @:-)
DHS & TSA really are designed to appear and act in the most stupid ways possible.
Meanwhile, all those power bricks without LED's continue to sail through the checkpoints. @:-)DHS & TSA really are designed to appear and act in the most stupid ways possible.
Jul 7, 2014, 10:24 am
#69
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Seattle, Wash. USA
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Jul 7, 2014, 10:35 am
#70
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Sounds like Christmas just came early for some security workers overseas. I imagine there's a bit of jealousy amongst some of their US counterparts.
Jul 7, 2014, 10:43 am
#71
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Electronics should never be placed in checked luggage. It's just like leaving them on the sidewalk of Manhattan for 8 hours (not that they would last that long).
Jul 7, 2014, 10:45 am
#72
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Plenty of people still carry mains-powered electronics, not just battery-powered gear. This is utter insanity, and the USA is once again to thank.
Jul 7, 2014, 10:46 am
#73
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Boot from SD card:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szt97BSaHNU
Yes, of course they have "some technical expertise" they MAKE BOMBS THAT USE ELECTRONICS. They might even possess the same level of expertise of the average teenager who posts videos on youtube about how to do the impossible, like boot your computer from an SD card.
We are being told now:
1. the terrorists have the capability of making undetectable bombs
2. an undetectable bomb the size of an iPhone is a threat, therefore iPhones need to be turned on
Yet:
a. all laptops can have the hard drive swapped out for an iPhone sized object and booted off of a smaller HD or else an SD card
When you combine these three "facts", you get the conclusion that all laptops must now be disassembled to check the contents to be sure they are not dummy frames built around a bomb. Since we cannot detect the bomb, an iPhone sized bomb is a threat, and they can store an iPhone sized object inside and still turn on, the turning on part is useless.
If they don't do this, then the concern is not absolutely real and something to worry about.
Conclusion: more security theater.
Jul 7, 2014, 10:48 am
#74
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I have just purchased a new electronic item from an airport shop, can I carry it on board if it has no power?
Customers must be prepared to demonstrate that the item has power. The item and its packaging may also be examined by security teams at the boarding gate. Please do all you can to ensure that any new electronic items you purchase at the airport have power before you reach the boarding gate.
Customers must be prepared to demonstrate that the item has power. The item and its packaging may also be examined by security teams at the boarding gate. Please do all you can to ensure that any new electronic items you purchase at the airport have power before you reach the boarding gate.
Jul 7, 2014, 10:57 am
#75
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Posts: 1,161
And you are not supposed to put lithium batteries in the hold due to the danger of fire.
http://safetravel.dot.gov/tips.html
They are even saying things like do not bring on board a recharged alkaline battery because it's not safe. Well if it's not safe then it's a weapon. Are they going to ban all alkaline batteries too now? I mean, if we want to be safe, let's be safe.
Basically allowing electronic devices on board means accepting some level of risk. The risk can be eliminated by thoroughly dismantling the devices and examining the components. Or by banning them from airplanes.
These are the only two routes. Everything else is a half measure and half measures are exploitable. It's either secure, or not secure.
They won't disassemble every electronic device because it would either take too long or be too expensive. They won't ban electronic devices because we claim to be dependent on them (really it is a huge inconvenience). Therefore by taking neither of the necessary steps to protecting the public from the hazard of disguised bombs in electronics, what they are doing is saying yes, your convenience is more important than your security.
It's up to the individual what to decide is real, the message delivered by the noise making organs or the message delivered by the actions.
I am all for keeping the guns and knives and bombs off the plane. I don't even care about the nudiescope. By all means check me out, I understand how offensive it is to other people and I respect their position on that too. But I'm just saying for me I don't care about being scanned. I'm not posting this then as someone who is anti-everything-TSA.
I just don't like when they commit to the foolish theater type of actions that don't do anything and slow the entire system down / hire more people / make it hard to get on the plane with no net benefit to security.
Checking bags for guns with the scanner or explosives with the explosive detector, these are efficient enough and able enough to catch these devices. So, go right on ahead. But don't be making everyone in line boot their damn laptop to get on board. That is going to add many hours of delays and do nothing. They are going to check hundreds of millions of laptops and find nothing and then they will say, see, it worked? No laptop bombs made it through.