ForumLurker

Thanks scoow. That was what I was looking for. This appears to be the first company confirmed to claim to be able to test vapors for peroxides via a test strip that turns blue. They also have a confirmed connection with TSA and a 50 strip container claimed to be in use. Now we only need to contact the company, and maybe confirm some of our findings. Do scoow and I get our cookies yet Buba?

Caradoc

I think that's gone "beyond any reasonable doubt."

Mad_Max_Esq

That's a patent application, not necessarily a product that actually works or exists.

ETA: Before anybody says, "so what?" Anybody can apply for a patent for anything. For example, this guy claims to have a perpetual motion machine, and applied for a patent. http://www.google.com/patents/US20070246939

elechrisity

Agreed 110% on the factory seal statement. It's easy enough to obtain a blow-dryer and heat-shrink plastic.

I disagree another 110% on the scanners being meant to 'streamline' the process. On days when the scanner is broken, I consistently notice higher pax throughput via the metal detector lines. Anecdotal at best, obviously, but that's my experience. And again, I am in no way complaining about the opt-out time-frames or procedure. I chose to endure that.

To your questions, though:

Solution was confiscated. No options given. I was pressed for time, and did explain to the screener that due to unpacking both my bags, I was within 10 minutes of boarding time (after arriving 30 minutes early.)

No choice was given, whatsoever, after checking all my bags. I would have happily taken my contact solution back, so at least all I would have lost was 20 minutes of my day (as opposed to time + the $6 in solution.)

Carl Johnson

The assignee is the University of Oklahoma, so I figure it is a product of real research, not something by some random crank. Like you say, that doesn't prove it works. BUT, it DOES describe how it is SUPPOSED to work, and how to make it. If Bubbaloop will be so generous with his time as to do so, he can read it over and tell us whether it seems reasonable.

Go to the bottom of the text, and then look back up it to where a paragraph starts that says, "Referring now to Fig. 2"

3 lines down you will see this:

"If testing for vapors, the test strip and test subject may be placed in a sealed or semi sealed container (such as a plastic bag or other container)"

So what you have to do is, you have to seal it up so whatever vapors there are will be concentrated and have a chance to permeate the strip. I figure this is what they're using - something that, if it works, doesn't work the way they're pretending.

BubbaLoop

This claims (but does not demonstrate) that strips could detect peroxide vapors. A few points:

- This is a patent proposing the creation of the strips. Note they have not been created. This is a protection of an idea the author thinks may work. Note the hypothetical tone in the full text.

- I have no doubt a test strip sensitive enough to detect peroxide vapors could exist. What I know is that the concentration of hydrogen peroxide (that is one specific kind of peroxide, with distinct chemical properties of its own) above an open flask of liquid hydrogen peroxide under 100 C (which could be held by a person) is not sufficient to be detected by a strip (you would need a special vaporizing equipment to elevate it to high enough concentrations). Vapors above cups are the experimental setup in which strips are currently being used in airports. Even this patent suggests that a closed environment would be needed to detect vapors, and does not specify which vapors would be detectable.

- The proposal is for these strips to detect not just hydrogen peroxide, but other peroxides (some of which may be much more volatile) and other oxidizing agents (such as nitroxides).

- This detection method is based on the reaction of a blue substance that turns yellow when oxidized. Thus, a positive result would be yellow, not blue. Blue is negative!

But get me a flask of these strips if they exist. I would love to wave them above a H2O2 solution to see what happens!

FliesWay2Much

Basic high school chemistry question: Is H2O2 heavier than air, or at least neutrally buoyant? Just based on atomic weight, the two atoms of hydrogen would add virtually nothing to the two atoms of oxygen. If I'm correct, I would think that H2O2 would outgas under pressure (i.e.: upwards in the direction of the magic strip) only if the liquid was boiling. Otherwise, wouldn't virtually all of the vapor (if any at room temperature) remain in the bottle or the Freedom bag?

TSORon

Agreed.

I didn’t say that they actually streamlined the process, but that this was a part of their intended purpose. I don’t work with them so I cant say for sure about their capabilities, only what I have read through some of the TSA training.

Hmm, both the TSA and every airline out there (USA wise) recommends 2 hours before flight. That might have given you enough time to find another solution for your “solution” problem. Personally, I never arrive 2 whole hours before a flight, it seems a bit excessive to me. Usually an hour is sufficient unless traveling during a peak travel period like 5-7am.

You are absolutely sure about that? Or was it that you told them that you were very late and might miss your flight and they offered the only “solution” that would also get you to your flight? In any case, even in those cases they are required to offer alternatives. The possibility that they didn’t also means that there is a possibility that they didn’t do their job 100% by the SOP. Its been known to happen from time to time.

BubbaLoop

The weight of hydrogen peroxide is virtually the same as water, but its tendency to form vapor in the first place is very, very low. Even if a molecule gets the energy input necessary to vaporize (significantly more than necessary for water, because hydrogen peroxide is actually better at hydrogen bonding), it would mostly decompose, not vaporize.The vapor would not remain anywhere, because there is almost no molecule in this form in the first place.

ludocdoc

Actually, H2O2 is significantly heavier than H20 because it has that extra Oxygen atom. The question is, is it heavier than air?

Air: mostly N2 mol weight 28 -78% or so
some O2 32 - 21%
some CO2 44 traces
some H2O 18 traces

H2O2 is 34, so heavier than the main components of air. That isn't to say there is no CO2 at the ceiling or no N2 on the floor, as things do mix. However, walking through a terminal with a glass of H2O2, once you stopped moving (and thus stirring the air over the glass) there would probably be a very thin layer above the liquid. Since it's room temperature, well below the boiling point, I'd think the amount of H2O2 vapor above the cup would be very low.

Also, the stuff is reactive, and in light it converts to O2 and H2O pretty quickly (hence, the brown bottles). I'd wonder, form the card carrying chemists, how much would actually be in the vapor stage as H2O2 and thus detectable, and how much would simply decompose into O2 and H20 before reaching the strip.

chollie

(bolding mine) This has been my experience - no option has ever been offered, in many cases (depends on checkpoint layout, of course), the TSO has told me the item couldn't be allowed through and immediately tossed it into a nearby bin or set aside underneath a table.

I have actually had to 'argue' (obsequiously) to leave the checkpoint with my 'contraband' item. Unless I'm extraordinarily pressed for time, I will leave the checkpoint and deposit the item in a nearby toilet trashcan rather than give it to a TSO. Unless, of course, it's a forgotten bottle of water. Then I just ask for the cap (collecting for a large-scale project). I have seen sealed water bottles 'set aside' instead of deposited in a nearby trash bin.

BubbaLoop

Yes, I basically meant (although I wrote otherwise, sorry!), that the weight of H2O2 versus the weight of water is not what determines its low concentration of H2O2 in the air. The problem is its high boiling point and its low stability, making vaporized concentrations very low, unless artificially generated by H2O2 vaporizing equipment.

ludocdoc

I forget who, upthread, is the H2O2 chemist (you?), but I'd suspect that to generate a reasonable concentration you'd need a closed contained with the strip in it, and the strip would need to be impregnated with the reagent, for the same stability reasons.

Are peroxide based contact lens solutions forbidden in any volume? I suspect it wouldn't be hard to get them through if desired anyway. Then all we need is a volunteer to sacrifice his or her soda by dumping the solution into a cup and asking a crew to test it.

1) See test strip crew
2) Dump soda, replace with contact lens solution.
3) Hang out around survey team looking suspicious
3a) Look like a kettle. Approach team saying "I feel so much safer here with you protecting me. Will you make sure my taco bell drink is safe too?
4) Watch chaos evolve.

exilencfc

I asked in the other thread but my post got lost... can you actually keep H202 in a typical beverage container anyway? My background is in naval history and I know the Germans had enormous trouble with the stuff when they tried using it as submarine fuel, but of course they didn't have access to modern plastic containers

Pesky Monkey

The long answer, no.