$11,000 penalties
 

Has there been any record of anyone actually being assessed one of those TSA $11,000 civil penalties? I've read lots of threats, but are they for real?

It is a real civil penalty, one of a number of them for various actions at a checkpoint that don't rise to the level of a crime. What we've heard (and is consistent with reports) is that it can't be assessed by anybody at the airport, but they file a report asking for somebody at TSA HQ to investigate. That group seems reluctant to actually assess penalties unless the behavior is particularly egregious (simply refusing a search doesn't meet that threshold) but it has been assessed.

I find it fascinating that it has. Do you have links to examples?

I think my post might have been a bit ambiguous. What I meant to say was that civil penalties have been assessed, and there are numerous reports of them (e.g., for accidentally having a gun). I didn't mean to imply that the particular top penalty ($11,000) has been assessed.

FOIA
 

I too would love to know if any have been assessed, how many, how much.

Figure I ask for a full list on Monday and I'll get it 2016.

Problem is... any specific security incident is SSI, or at least that's how they'll assess fines against us.

I know that John Tyner, the “Don’t touch my junk” guy was not fined, he stood up to the TSA by refusing to go through the NOS when selected and was escorted out of the terminal by both the TSA and airport police. He had already received his refund of his ticket from the ticket counter in the lobby and was heading out of the terminal when he was approached by a higher level TSA suit who threatened him with fines if he did not return to the checkpoint to complete the screening process. He still refused and since he was in the lobby, the non sterile part of the terminal, the airport police just stood by and did nothing and he basically walked out of the terminal leaving the TSA suits standing in the lobby.

He had all of this on video which he posted on YouTube, so the TSA suits or the police could not fabricate anything like disorderly conduct, and I read somewhere that the TSA notified him that they were no going to fine him at all.

Same about the Alaska state representative who refused a body inspection when the NOS showed an anomaly on her chest, she recently had a cancerous breast removed and what the NOS was showing was scar tissue. She was then not allowed to enter the sterile area and was escorted out without completing the screening process to resolve the anomaly, she also was not fined by the TSA.

I feel the if the TSA does actually levy a $11,000 fine, after the TSA’s kangaroo court upholds the fine, and the person decides to appeal the fine to the Federal District Court, the chances that the court will rule the fine excessive or even possibly even illegal, so I believe the TSA would not even take the chance because if the court rules against the TSA, this takes away from the TSA the threat of a huge fine the screeners can use to force passengers into submitting to all their demands.

Mr. Elliott

Wasn't the woman with the bookmark fined? Also, I think the woman who got into it over her now-deceased mother was fined as well.

Back on the FOIA issue, I believe that these Administrative Law Judge Kangaroo Courts aren't actually courts, so there's no requirement for the records to be made public. I would think it would be hard or impossible to obtain records of the fines the Coast Guard ALJ hands out for boating violations (same for the FAA and aviation violations).

So, these are ordinary government records and are subject to FOIA. I would think that, if the TSA worked at it, they could release records with the Privacy Act information redacted fairly easily.

Another way would be for someone (perhaps a FT poster) who has been threatened with a fine (or actually fined) to post about the experience and procedures.

I think that everybody understands that these fines won't be assessed for people simply refusing to submit to procedures: these are for people who bring prohibited items through or actively interfere with the screening process, notwithstanding some of the bluster that we've occaisionally heard.

This opens up a whole other discussion, the TSA can claim that refusing to submit to screening procedures, you are in fact interfering with the screening process and are subject to fines.

The screeners will do anything they can to force compliance, including threats of fines, and arrest because as they claim they can do anything they want because you surrender all your rights at the checkpoint. This is what the TSA suits tried to do to John Tyner, even after he was escorted from the checkpoint, force him back to complete the screening process under the threat of a fine.

Who knows, if he had not posted the video on YouTube, he might have been fined, I am sure not $11,000 dollars, but something much less. As one of our resident TSO’s posted, the suits do not have the authority to assess a fine, they only fill out a report and it is up to another division, I believe it is called regulatory that decides to impose a fine or not

I agree about fines for trying to bring prohibited items through the checkpoint, and they rightfully deserve to be fined. This no different than being fined $300.00 bringing in any foods items through the border without declaring that you have food products, either banned or not.

I believe the woman who got into it over her now deceased mother was arrested and fined by the local authorities and given a suspended sentence and told to stay out of trouble by the judge, I don’t think the TSA followed up with a fine of their own, the bad publicity the TSA would have faced, fining a women defending her mother would have been far worse than any money they would have collected in fining her.

Mr. Elliott

In both normal English and in the law, the word "interfere" implies doing something. You don't "interfere" by chosing to not do something. In any event, as has been discussed here multiple times, there has never been any evidence that the regulatory branch would ever impose a fine under those conditions and there have even been statements saying that they would not.

You can certainly contest the fine at an Administrative Law Court - my aviation law professor was a ALC judge and they are not kangaroo courts and will not automatically side with the TSA. You can bring a lawyer and make demands of proof on the TSA, show evidence, etc. These same courts hear a variety of cases, including the fine and penalty cases brought by the FAA against certificate holders (which is what they spent most of their time doing before the TSA came into everyone's nightmares).

The only way a civil penalty is sure to go against you in a ALC is if you brought a weapon through the checkpoint - anything else is pretty much up for grabs.

I think the question is have any of the large threatened $11,000 fines been levied. There have been *lots* of smaller fines assessed, such as the passenger at SMF fined for carrying a cheese slicer. :rolleyes:

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/pract...heckpoint.html


Uh, no, it's not bluster. See link above. Cheese-slicer-man was hardly trying to "actively interfere" nor were the couple who were fined for carrying a wedding-cake server after their wedding. If TSA collects your identifying information for any reason at a checkpoint, your dossier will likely go before some desk-bound bureaucrat who has the authority to arbitrarily levy fines. That's why it's crucial to use ID without your address on it and hold out as long as possible if they try to get your home address.

I used to work for FAA enforcement and I can give some insight into the process. Most of the items confiscated at the airport are simply junked/sold whatever. Only, in serious cases would an enforcement action take place. In that case the FAA regional counsel’s office would receive the file from the TSA and one of three things would take place: one, the matter is dropped; two, the enforcement process starts; or three, in the case of sensitive cases it is forwarded on to the national counsel’s office in D.C.

Looking at number two, if the regional counsel’s office decides to proceed with the action, an enforcement letter is sent to the person. This letter details what happened, how it violates the Code of Federal Regulations, what the proposed fine is, and procedural steps after this. Now a person can accept the fine/punishment (almost never happens), negotiate a settlement (happens most often) or go before an ALJ.

Now, the main question was how are the fines levied? Well this is done according to an UNPUBLISHED schedule. It is fairly rare that the maximum fine of 11,000.00 is levied, normally the numbers are in the 1,000-5,000 range. In the event that the fines exceed some amount or the proposed punishment exceeds some number the national counsel’s office would have to approve that.

I wouldn’t think that getting mouthy with the TSA, or even being escorted out of the airport would be enough to draw a penalty. I would think a person would have to actively prevent the TSA officers from doing their jobs.

Once in the checkpoint, case law states that a person has consented to the complete check. I think that if you say refuse to consent to a pat-down, the TSA would just call a LEO. They would do the pat-down and you would be escorted from the airport. Once you leave the TSA checkpoint on the LAND SIDE the TSA have no power.

So what do they do if this a tourist! A foreigner?

They cant refuse them flying can they? And does that not go against immigration and their policy that "you" have to leave the country?