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Old Mar 20, 2012, 8:35 pm
  #46  
 
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins
On the other hand, if we treat TSOs with dignity and respect, maybe --- just maybe --- they might start treating us with dignity and respect in return.
The SOP does not allow them to do that even if they wanted to.

I suspect few go to a checkpoint actually looking to be rude or wanting a confrontation. The point is what to do when the inevitable sometimes happens. Cave or push back ? Your call; and everyone else's too.

For me, tolerance and forbearance yes, I'm afraid I can't seem to manage respect.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 11:39 pm
  #47  
 
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Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
still not getting it. Just seems to be lowering ones self to their (supposed) standards.

This malicious pleasure is not the FT I joined 11 years ago. We didn't have members like that then.
We weren't subjected to random crotch and butt invasions then either. Joy in someone's self-inflicted misfortune aside, there is mounting evidence that the TSA workforce has significant numbers of untrustworthy members.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 11:55 pm
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins
But the Golden Rule would dictate that we should treat the TSA as we would wish to be treated --- even if they treat us worse. The Golden Rule is a maxim for me to follow, not for me to impose on someone else.
If an armed thief broke into my house when I was home with my family, I could conceivably ventilate him with my 45 whilst wishing his soul well in the hereafter. To do otherwise would be neglecting my duty to protect my family. The Golden Rule does not involve standing by letting harm come to those you could help.

Calling the TSA clerks on what they are doing in their reprehensible full body searches, involving forced, \unwanted, under duress contact with genitals, buttocks, breasts, without cause, at random even after the person successfully goes through AIT, calling them on this is not against any Golden Rule. Calling them on it to get this to stop is required, period. The Golden Rule does not apply to legitimate efforts to stop harmful criminal behavior.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 11:59 pm
  #49  
Ari
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Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
still not getting it. Just seems to be lowering ones self to their (supposed) standards.

This malicious pleasure is not the FT I joined 11 years ago. We didn't have members like that then.
I'm guessing from your handle that you are European, not American. I think there is a cultural difference; here, publishing a mugshot is not considered malicious, but rather just a standard part of many news stories.

I remember when the whole DSK thing was going on and people watching in Europe were shocked and appallled that he was shown on TV in handcuffs even though he hadn't been convicted.

Bottom line: On this side of the pond, publishing a mugshot and doing a perp walk are just part of the criminal justice scene. There is nothing malicious about linking the mugshot either-- it is just considered part of the news story.

Last edited by Ari; Mar 21, 2012 at 9:55 am Reason: Remove somewhat gratuitous personal commentary.
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 12:21 am
  #50  
 
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins
One argument: because the TSO in question is entitled to the same presumption of innocence that every other citizen enjoys.
TSA treats us all like were guilty of being terrorists and treats us as such until proven innocent, so why should this one get any slack. I know plenty of employers that will terminate a employee if they were to embrass the company or in or out of uniform.

Plus TSA marches out all that malarky about "Highly Trained Professionals" and BDO "Voodoo", yet they didnt see or catch this... it just goes to prove its all for show and lies.
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 12:34 am
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Ari
I'm guessing from your handle that you are European, not American. I think there is a cultural difference; here, publishing a mugshot is not considered malicious, but rather just a standard part of many news stories.
My comments were aimed at the people that said they enjoy looking at the mugshot. That was the 'malicious pleasure' in context.

I still don't see a valid reason for posting the mugshot on this site. There is nothing gained from adding the mugshot here that cannot be read through the newspaper article.

My cultural background has nothing to do with it. i realise mugshots are published in the States. What purpose it serves on FT i don't know.
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 7:26 am
  #52  
 
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins
On the other hand, if we treat TSOs with dignity and respect, maybe --- just maybe --- they might start treating us with dignity and respect in return. And maybe, then, some of them might start fighting on behalf of passengers inside of the TSA, where they might actually do some good.
Originally Posted by Wally Bird
The SOP does not allow them to do that even if they wanted to.
Sure it does. Look at the thread that HSVTSO Dean started, in which he demonstrated to his trainers at ATL how treating passengers lining up for the AIT with courtesy and respect was not only within the SOP, but actually made the screening process more efficient.

And, yes, there are limits to that respect. But TSA could do much more than it does now.

Originally Posted by nachtnebel
The Golden Rule does not apply to legitimate efforts to stop harmful criminal behavior.
If you see a crime being committed at a TSA checkpoint, then by all means summon a LEO and have the TSA employees in question arrested and charged with that crime.

Originally Posted by Scubatooth
TSA treats us all like were guilty of being terrorists and treats us as such until proven innocent, so why should this one get any slack.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the world blind and toothless. --Gandhi
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 8:27 am
  #53  
 
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Originally Posted by Wally Bird
The SOP does not allow them to do that even if they wanted to.

I suspect few go to a checkpoint actually looking to be rude or wanting a confrontation. The point is what to do when the inevitable sometimes happens. Cave or push back ? Your call; and everyone else's too.

For me, tolerance and forbearance yes, I'm afraid I can't seem to manage respect.
One of the first rules of the job is to "take command of the situations", and one does that by "exerting their authority". It's an attitude adopted from law enforcement (and to a lesser degree, the military).
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 9:53 am
  #54  
Ari
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Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
My comments were aimed at the people that said they enjoy looking at the mugshot. That was the 'malicious pleasure' in context.
Ah, you object to the schadenfreude; that's a little different. Since many around here believe all TSOs are criminals, seeing one in a mugshot brings them pleasure. I suppose I can understand both sentiments. But it isn't really personal about her, I think it is the 'joy' of seeing any TSO in a mugshot. I'm not sure if that makes it better or worse.

An interesting tidbit: A TSO was arrested in Chicago in uniform (was traveling between work and home-- arrest was unrelated to being a TSO) and the CPD let him take off his uniform shirt and put on a different shirt for his mugshot. I don't know if it was their idea or his.

With respect to her guilt or innocence, most criminal defense attorneys claim their clients are innocent. I personally find it a little hard to believe that she actually did what she is accused of doing, but she'll have her day in court to deal with that. I think she might actually be innocent (not to be confused with being presumed innocent which she is, of course).

Last edited by Ari; Mar 21, 2012 at 9:59 am
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 10:37 am
  #55  
 
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Originally Posted by jkhuggins

If you see a crime being committed at a TSA checkpoint, then by all means summon a LEO and have the TSA employees in question arrested and charged with that crime.
Some things are crimes whether the state recognizes them as such or not, particularly in the case where agents of the state are performing actions. Unwanted, under duress touching of private areas of someone else's body without any cause is criminal. It happens to be to the state's advantage so they conveniently "legalize" a criminal act, but it still retains its inherent nature of being criminal.
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Old Mar 21, 2012, 4:48 pm
  #56  
 
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Originally Posted by LHR/MEL/Europe FF
I still don't see a valid reason for posting the mugshot on this site. There is nothing gained from adding the mugshot here that cannot be read through the newspaper article.
My valid reason is that I'm unlikely to read a local paper for a city I may transit through but don't reside in. To date I've read nothing to suggest her arresting officer's probable cause is in question, so while presumed innocent, having been arrested she is under suspicion.

Since domestic travel means my body will be touched intimately and my belongings out of my control, I greatly prefer this be done by screeners who are not under suspicion of any crimes. Their ID is difficult to read and purposely obscured by some, so her picture is the best way of identifying and avoiding her.

In forty+ years of travel before TSA, I never had a single theft. Places I went included famous attractions where theft from tourists is common, as well as distressed areas where my mere presence indicated I had vastly greater resources than most people there. After TSA, I had multiple thefts related solely to their procedures every year until 2011, when I reduced my air travel considerably.
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