Terminal Dump at MAF after US Soldier attempts to bring bomb thru TSA checkpoint
#151
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,331
I’d rather not “read between the lines” sir. That is where assumptions are born (as is shown in the other individuals post), and errors occur. I’d rather wait on the facts than speculate about what seems reasonable and what is not. The term “reasonable” has some very irrational meanings to many folks in this forum.
Interesting perspective. And the proof supporting your assumption is where? Should I hold my breath waiting on it, or can we move on now?
We know for a fact that he had it in the bag on the date of its discovery. Prior to that, well we have only his word, sort of. Even the soldier is not real clear on that. We also know for a fact that he had a bag with a live smoke grenade in it a week or so earlier. Was it the same bag? Maybe, maybe not. Everything else is assumption and may not be accurate. Is that what you are willing to hang your hat on, your “assumptions” of what may or may not have actually happened? Sure TSA misses things, when was the last time you didn’t put the toilet seat down? We are all human.
My question is what made this guy think it was “OK” to bring C4 home with him from the war? And how far is the military willing to go to teach him the error of his ways? I don’t wish anything harsh for the guy, after all I consider him and the others over there fighting to be hero’s, but bringing 2.5 pounds of high explosives home must have a consequence.
Interesting perspective. And the proof supporting your assumption is where? Should I hold my breath waiting on it, or can we move on now?
We know for a fact that he had it in the bag on the date of its discovery. Prior to that, well we have only his word, sort of. Even the soldier is not real clear on that. We also know for a fact that he had a bag with a live smoke grenade in it a week or so earlier. Was it the same bag? Maybe, maybe not. Everything else is assumption and may not be accurate. Is that what you are willing to hang your hat on, your “assumptions” of what may or may not have actually happened? Sure TSA misses things, when was the last time you didn’t put the toilet seat down? We are all human.
My question is what made this guy think it was “OK” to bring C4 home with him from the war? And how far is the military willing to go to teach him the error of his ways? I don’t wish anything harsh for the guy, after all I consider him and the others over there fighting to be hero’s, but bringing 2.5 pounds of high explosives home must have a consequence.
Originally Posted by Reuters in the Yahoo article
Atwater grabbed the bag out of his garage for his Christmas-time trip from North Carolina to Texas as a carry-on and put his children's items in it, but he did not see the C-4 explosives inside, the affidavit said.
He said that he had not used any C-4 in training since his return to the United States.
When he left North Carolina on December 24, airport screening officers confiscated a smoke grenade from his bag, according to the affidavit.
He said that he had not used any C-4 in training since his return to the United States.
When he left North Carolina on December 24, airport screening officers confiscated a smoke grenade from his bag, according to the affidavit.
"Was it the same bag? Maybe, maybe not." Who's making unwarranted assumptions now? Have you seen ANY mention, ANYWHERE, that he was carrying TWO bags? That the smoke grenade was not, in fact, found in the same bag which contained the C4? ANYWHERE? The mere suggestion that TSA might not have missed the C4, because it might have been in a different bag than the smoke grenade, is preposterous on its face - it doesn't matter if he was carrying 50 bags, they found a smoke grenade in one of them, ALL of them should have been given a thorough secondary search.
Face it, Ron - your colleagues in NC missed FIVE POUNDS OF C4 that was in a bag carried by someone who they should have been giving a thorough secondary search due to the fact that he was carrying a highly prohibited item. Your colleagues give thorough secondaries to people who opt out of the AIT, to people who don't respond to their illegal interrogations, to people who try to photograph the checkpoints, and yet...
They either failed to give a secondary to a man who was caught carrying a smoke grenade through the checkpoint, or they gave him a secondary and missed five pounds of C4.
In my opinion, this is the biggest screening failure in the 10-year history of your agency. Almost all of the other controversies stem from deliberate abuses by the agency or criminal activities by individual employees, but this one was definitely a total and complete failure of the screening process - it failed to detect five pounds of undisguised, unhidden high explosive in a carry-on bag, after the traveler had already triggered an alert that should have mandated a secondary hand search of ALL of his carry-on items.
MASSIVE FAIL. MASSIVE.
#152
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,629
And unlike all the other items confiscated/surrendered (guns, knives, martial arts toys, cupcakes, lotions), this is something that possibly could have caused serious damage (I don't know enough to know if it was enough to bring a plane down or not).
Last edited by chollie; Jan 14, 2012 at 9:16 pm
#153
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: DFW
Posts: 28,079
Would have require a detonator but 2+ lbs of C4 would do the job on an airplane.
#154
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LGA - JFK
Programs: UA, AA, DL, B6, CX, KE, Latitude, VIFP, Crown & Anchor, etc.
Posts: 2,589
So, the elite solider trained in demolition was found to be in possession of a smoke grenade, LEO was called ?? but no terminal dump or bomb squad - it just went into the bins along with other "amnesty" items like chocolates & water bottles, expired OTC meds - a report presumably written up & a "reprimand" given, and he was clear to fly. Hmmm, something smell here - kind of fishy to me ...
Perhaps Sgt. TSA was given a quick, courtesy secondary screening so that his family traveling along wouldn't be delayed further, and they're on their way - they trusted him & took his words for it, he wasn't a threat to anyone ... (priority boarding & F seating upgrade per availability, etc.)
From the standpoint of defending this absent-minded elite Army Ranger, playing dumb is probably the best tactical move for his attorney/counsel ...
#155
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 555
I must say it's one of the worst excuse that I've heard over the years - that a trained solider forgot that he's carrying an extra 5 lbs+ of gears that originated from the war zone, half way around the world. One of my traveling Dell notebook is about 5 lbs. and when I pickup my backpack to travel, I can easily tell that something heavy is inside the padded compartment (like a 5 lb. notebook) without looking - even if it's empty of everything else.
So, the elite solider trained in demolition was found to be in possession of a smoke grenade, LEO was called ?? but no terminal dump or bomb squad - it just went into the bins along with other "amnesty" items like chocolates & water bottles, expired OTC meds - a report presumably written up & a "reprimand" given, and he was clear to fly. Hmmm, something smell here - kind of fishy to me ...
Perhaps Sgt. TSA was given a quick, courtesy secondary screening so that his family traveling along wouldn't be delayed further, and they're on their way - they trusted him & took his words for it, he wasn't a threat to anyone ... (priority boarding & F seating upgrade per availability, etc.)
The demolition expert instructor, I believe, is qualified to improvise and fashion the detonator using whatever is available in the field, as they are trained to handle adverse conditions in their given assignments - whether it's taking down a plane in the air or blowing up a concrete reinforced structure, such as a terminal building or anything else as needed.
Perhaps Sgt. TSA was given a quick, courtesy secondary screening so that his family traveling along wouldn't be delayed further, and they're on their way - they trusted him & took his words for it, he wasn't a threat to anyone ... (priority boarding & F seating upgrade per availability, etc.)
The demolition expert instructor, I believe, is qualified to improvise and fashion the detonator using whatever is available in the field, as they are trained to handle adverse conditions in their given assignments - whether it's taking down a plane in the air or blowing up a concrete reinforced structure, such as a terminal building or anything else as needed.
~~ Irish
#156
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Baltimore, MD USA
Programs: Southwest Rapid Rewards. Tha... that's about it.
Posts: 4,331
There is a lot of speculation going around, and I'm not immune from it. My mental picture of the sequence of events is like this:
Sgt. Atwater brought home 5 pounds of C4 and a smoke grenade from Afghanistan. Whether he brought it home accidentally because he forgot it was in his bag, or deliberately for some reason, I don't know. I have seen several posters here and on Facebook comments on this incident saying that, in their experience, returning soldiers are required to go through a thorough inspection to prevent them from bringing weapons and explosives home from a war zone without authorization, and that such an inspection would have found the C4 and smoker, but I don't know that for a fact. It's possible that, as an elite Green Beret, Sgt Atwater went through a different process when he returned home and his bag wasn't inspected. It's possible that such inspections are no longer performed for some reason. It's also possible that Sgt. Atwater deliberately smuggled the C4 and smoker home for some reason.
He says he put the bag into his garage when he returned home, then retrieved it and filled it with Christmas presents for his children prior to his trip to Texas. Somehow, he didn't notice five pounds of C4 and a smoke grenade in the bag when he filled it with presents. This is the part where my imagination comes up short of reasonable, rational explanations. How do you not notice something weighing five pounds in a bag that you're about to fill? Was the bag already so full that he didn't notice the five pounds? If so, why would he choose it for packing Christmas presents? Did he only have a couple of presents? What else was in the bag before the presents, aside from the C4 and smoker?
The only reasonable scenarios I can imagine that would fit with his contention that he forgot the C4 and smoker were in the bag, and failed to notice them when he packed it with his kids' presents, are rather involved and far-fetched. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, so my gut feeling is that he's lying - he DID know that he had 5 pounds of C4 and a smoke grenade in his bag, and was intentionally taking them with him to Texas. But that's entirely speculation.
Why would he deliberately bring home 5 pounds of C4 and a smoke grenade, then take them from NC to TX when he visited his kids for Christmas? There are three possibilities: A) Fun, B) Profit, C) Evil intent. Given who he is and that fact that there were no terrorist attacks or other crimes involving C4 in Texas over the holidays, I find C to be unlikely. B is certainly possible. Heck, for all we know, he could have had 20 pounds of C4 when he arrived in TX, sold 15, and the 5 that were in his bag on the return leg were just leftovers he couldn't find a buyer for. Again, though, there were no crimes in TX that I'm aware of involving C4 over the holidays, so this seems unlikely. Which brings us to A.
I believe that Sgt Atwater took the C4 and smoke grenade to TX with him deliberately, to put on a demo show for his friends and family. Either the show never took place, or he had more C4 when he arrived and the 5 pounds he was caught with were just leftovers, which is why he was trying to take them back to NC with him. But that's entirely speculation.
When he arrived at the airport in NC, he transited a TSA checkpoint, which discovered the smoke grenade in his bag and confiscated it. Did this trigger a full secondary search of the bag, it's owner, and all of his other carry on items? It should have; if it didn't, TSA fails miserably. If it did, and that secondary search failed to discover the 5 pounds of C4 in the bag, TSA fails miserably. Was the C4 wrapped up like a Christmas present to avoid visual detection? Or was it sitting in the bottom of the bag in its original wrappers, clearly marked "C4 HIGH EXPLOSIVE", and the TSOs simply didn't see it? Was it in a side compartment and the TSO simply didn't look in there? No matter how you imagine this scenario, TSA fails miserably.
Most importantly, was an ETD swab test performed on the bag? If it was, did it come up positive? It it did, why was the bag not emptied out for inspection? If it came up negative, with 5 pounds of C4 in the bag, then what good are they? Are the ETD swabs, which sometimes give false positives from things like hand lotions, completely useless for detecting massive quantities of the very thing they're specifically tasked with detecting? Either option, that the swab wasn't done or that the swab failed to detect the C4, is disturbing in the extreme.
The only reasonable scenario I can come up with in my imagination is that the smoker was spotted by the carry-on x-ray operator, but Sgt Atwater was able to convince the TSOs at the checkpoint that he forgot the smoker was in there, and that as an active-duty US Army soldier, he was so low on the threat scale that he didn't deserve a thorough secondary search of himself and his belongings, even after discovery of such a highly prohibited item. I think he played the "I'm an American hero fighting to keep you safe, on my way home to see my children for Christmas" card, and the TSOs tripped all over themselves to get him through the checkpoint with adoration and fanfare. But that's entirely speculation.
In short, I think Atwater knew he had C4 with him and deliberately attempted to smuggle it from NC to TX, then back again. But that's speculation.
I also think that TSA has failed miserably at its primary mission - keeping weapons, explosives, and incendiaries off airplanes. And that's not speculation - that's a fact.
Sgt. Atwater brought home 5 pounds of C4 and a smoke grenade from Afghanistan. Whether he brought it home accidentally because he forgot it was in his bag, or deliberately for some reason, I don't know. I have seen several posters here and on Facebook comments on this incident saying that, in their experience, returning soldiers are required to go through a thorough inspection to prevent them from bringing weapons and explosives home from a war zone without authorization, and that such an inspection would have found the C4 and smoker, but I don't know that for a fact. It's possible that, as an elite Green Beret, Sgt Atwater went through a different process when he returned home and his bag wasn't inspected. It's possible that such inspections are no longer performed for some reason. It's also possible that Sgt. Atwater deliberately smuggled the C4 and smoker home for some reason.
He says he put the bag into his garage when he returned home, then retrieved it and filled it with Christmas presents for his children prior to his trip to Texas. Somehow, he didn't notice five pounds of C4 and a smoke grenade in the bag when he filled it with presents. This is the part where my imagination comes up short of reasonable, rational explanations. How do you not notice something weighing five pounds in a bag that you're about to fill? Was the bag already so full that he didn't notice the five pounds? If so, why would he choose it for packing Christmas presents? Did he only have a couple of presents? What else was in the bag before the presents, aside from the C4 and smoker?
The only reasonable scenarios I can imagine that would fit with his contention that he forgot the C4 and smoker were in the bag, and failed to notice them when he packed it with his kids' presents, are rather involved and far-fetched. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, so my gut feeling is that he's lying - he DID know that he had 5 pounds of C4 and a smoke grenade in his bag, and was intentionally taking them with him to Texas. But that's entirely speculation.
Why would he deliberately bring home 5 pounds of C4 and a smoke grenade, then take them from NC to TX when he visited his kids for Christmas? There are three possibilities: A) Fun, B) Profit, C) Evil intent. Given who he is and that fact that there were no terrorist attacks or other crimes involving C4 in Texas over the holidays, I find C to be unlikely. B is certainly possible. Heck, for all we know, he could have had 20 pounds of C4 when he arrived in TX, sold 15, and the 5 that were in his bag on the return leg were just leftovers he couldn't find a buyer for. Again, though, there were no crimes in TX that I'm aware of involving C4 over the holidays, so this seems unlikely. Which brings us to A.
I believe that Sgt Atwater took the C4 and smoke grenade to TX with him deliberately, to put on a demo show for his friends and family. Either the show never took place, or he had more C4 when he arrived and the 5 pounds he was caught with were just leftovers, which is why he was trying to take them back to NC with him. But that's entirely speculation.
When he arrived at the airport in NC, he transited a TSA checkpoint, which discovered the smoke grenade in his bag and confiscated it. Did this trigger a full secondary search of the bag, it's owner, and all of his other carry on items? It should have; if it didn't, TSA fails miserably. If it did, and that secondary search failed to discover the 5 pounds of C4 in the bag, TSA fails miserably. Was the C4 wrapped up like a Christmas present to avoid visual detection? Or was it sitting in the bottom of the bag in its original wrappers, clearly marked "C4 HIGH EXPLOSIVE", and the TSOs simply didn't see it? Was it in a side compartment and the TSO simply didn't look in there? No matter how you imagine this scenario, TSA fails miserably.
Most importantly, was an ETD swab test performed on the bag? If it was, did it come up positive? It it did, why was the bag not emptied out for inspection? If it came up negative, with 5 pounds of C4 in the bag, then what good are they? Are the ETD swabs, which sometimes give false positives from things like hand lotions, completely useless for detecting massive quantities of the very thing they're specifically tasked with detecting? Either option, that the swab wasn't done or that the swab failed to detect the C4, is disturbing in the extreme.
The only reasonable scenario I can come up with in my imagination is that the smoker was spotted by the carry-on x-ray operator, but Sgt Atwater was able to convince the TSOs at the checkpoint that he forgot the smoker was in there, and that as an active-duty US Army soldier, he was so low on the threat scale that he didn't deserve a thorough secondary search of himself and his belongings, even after discovery of such a highly prohibited item. I think he played the "I'm an American hero fighting to keep you safe, on my way home to see my children for Christmas" card, and the TSOs tripped all over themselves to get him through the checkpoint with adoration and fanfare. But that's entirely speculation.
In short, I think Atwater knew he had C4 with him and deliberately attempted to smuggle it from NC to TX, then back again. But that's speculation.
I also think that TSA has failed miserably at its primary mission - keeping weapons, explosives, and incendiaries off airplanes. And that's not speculation - that's a fact.
#157
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
Congress needs to subpoena Pistole to appear before it to explain how this serious breach happened. The subpoena needs to be issued so that Pistole can't refuse to appear or send an underling in his place.
TSA is working very hard to cover up this serious FAIL on its part.
TSA is working very hard to cover up this serious FAIL on its part.
#159
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,629
Congress needs to subpoena Pistole to appear before it to explain how this serious breach happened. The subpoena needs to be issued so that Pistole can't refuse to appear or send an underling in his place.
TSA is working very hard to cover up this serious FAIL on its part.
TSA is working very hard to cover up this serious FAIL on its part.
Where's Leahy? Why isn't he using the bully pulpit? Or Mica?
#160
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,974
Unless 'special' has taken on a different meaning from that I'm familiar with, SF personnel always know what materiel they are carrying and where it is. Where these items came from I'm not going to guess; Afghanistan isn't the only possibility.
#161
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,629
It is hard to understand why Bob hasn't posted that the Fayetteville tapes have been reviewed and that the TSOs searched and swabbed the bag thoroughly when they detected and confiscated the grenade and 'admonished' the soldier. SOP was followed, the flying public was never in any danger and any further questions are outside the TSA's area of responsibility and should be addressed to military authorities.
#162
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
Ignoring it would leave him open to a charge of contempt of Congress.
#163
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salish Sea
Programs: DL,AC,HH,PC
Posts: 8,974
#164
Suspended
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 4,953
Originally Posted by chollie
It is hard to understand why Bob hasn't posted that the Fayetteville tapes have been reviewed and that the TSOs searched and swabbed the bag thoroughly when they detected and confiscated the grenade and 'admonished' the soldier.
It is hard to understand why Bob hasn't posted that the Fayetteville tapes have been reviewed and that the TSOs searched and swabbed the bag thoroughly when they detected and confiscated the grenade and 'admonished' the soldier.
#165
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: where the chile is hot
Programs: AA,RR,NW,Delta ,UA,CO
Posts: 41,629