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-   -   Do TSA cameras record sound? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1279041-do-tsa-cameras-record-sound.html)

Neutron Star Nov 13, 2011 1:30 pm

sbrower nailed it.

A handy guide to audio laws in all 50 states can be found at: http://www.rcfp.org/taping/. The links on the left of the page have valuable content of the exact state statutes and eavesdropping/wiretapping cases.

Federal law is USC Title 18, Ch 119, Sec 2510-2513.

afraidofflying Nov 13, 2011 2:23 pm


Originally Posted by sbrower (Post 17442412)
This is also not quite right.

First, it matters (a lot) which state you are in. Some allow you to record a conversation where you are participating, without getting others permission. Some require the permission of everyone involved.

Second, it matters (a lot) whether you are using the telephone for the conversation or whether it is face-to-face.

Third, it matters (a lot) whether there is a "reasonable expectation of privacy." DO NOT CONFUSE WITH PHOTOGRAPHY, WHICH HAS DIFFERENT RULES THAN AUDIO. So the fact that video recording is happening has little to do with whether audio is allowed. Now, if you are in a public place (airport) and if you have having a loud interaction (calling to your significant other 20 feet away), even if you are saying something intimate, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy. But if you are talking quietly to a ticket agent, at the counter, you might have a reasonable expectation of privacy for the conversation. On the other hand, if you are at a TSA checkpoint, and especially if there is a sign saying "Audio and video recording may be in progress" then neither you, nor the TSA employee, nor the LEO, nor the stranger standing near you probably has a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Big thanks. This is part of the answer I am looking for. When I am dealing with tsa agents or ticket person, I don't want want audio recording unless I consent to. Since I have not see any sign at any airport I go to (very non-flyer here) I do expect audio privacy at checkpoint, especially if I am under questioning.

With this in mind, has anyone encounter or seen airport video with audio? I personally haven't and like to know if there is one. It is very important to know what right I still haven't lost and what tools are being used against me as a citizen.

One more question, what does 'one-party consent' mean? Does that mean if I make a phone call or having a face-to-face communication, the other party can record me as long as they consent to it, even if my consent was never given? On that same note, what if the other party is a tsa agent or someone who has recently been empowered? To me, their consent, especially while on official duty, doesn't mean I consent. Otherwise, they may as well plant a chip in me in addition to ankle and wrist monitor bracelets.

afraidofflying Nov 13, 2011 9:36 pm


Third, it matters (a lot) whether there is a "reasonable expectation of privacy." DO NOT CONFUSE WITH PHOTOGRAPHY, WHICH HAS DIFFERENT RULES THAN AUDIO. So the fact that video recording is happening has little to do with whether audio is allowed. Now, if you are in a public place (airport) and if you have having a loud interaction (calling to your significant other 20 feet away), even if you are saying something intimate, you don't have a reasonable expectation of privacy. But if you are talking quietly to a ticket agent, at the counter, you might have a reasonable expectation of privacy for the conversation. On the other hand, if you are at a TSA checkpoint, and especially if there is a sign saying "Audio and video recording may be in progress" then neither you, nor the TSA employee, nor the LEO, nor the stranger standing near you probably has a reasonable expectation of privacy..
What if I am at a checkpoint and there is no sign indicating that audio recording is in progress, do people still have reasonable expectation of privacy the same way they would have when talking to ticket agents? I would think there should be a reasonable expectation of privacy here considering that people would be without shoes, some of their clothing off, and be subjected to questions and pat-down treatment that ticket agents don't do. As stated before, I surely wouldn't want the whole ideal recorded but it is being recorded on video; however, I would think wire taping is something they can't just bypass as easily. This is why I never see any video from airports, convenient stores, as well as bank with audio but all police dash-cam videos show voice.

Basically, I like to be able to have a leg to stand on and call out violation of wire taping if someone ever wants to use anything against me.

cbn42 Nov 13, 2011 10:29 pm


Originally Posted by sbrower (Post 17440299)
This is absolutely untrue. For example, if you are standing in a corner, having a whispered conversation with your spouse/significant other, the fact that you are in an airport does *not* mean that someone can record what you are saying with a parabolic mike.

The fact that you are in an airport has nothing to do with it. It is a public place, and if what you are saying can be overheard, it can be recorded.


Originally Posted by Dovster (Post 17440349)
Wrong. In fact, there are a number of states in which it is a criminal offense to record someone without his permission.

That is true if there is an expectation of privacy, for example in a phone call from your home or business.


Originally Posted by Neutron Star (Post 17442809)
sbrower nailed it.

A handy guide to audio laws in all 50 states can be found at: http://www.rcfp.org/taping/. The links on the left of the page have valuable content of the exact state statutes and eavesdropping/wiretapping cases.

Federal law is USC Title 18, Ch 119, Sec 2510-2513.

Ths "handy guide" is for phone calls in general, not in a public place. Wiretapping a phone line requires consent (of one or both parties, depending on the state), but recording a conversation that you can hear in a public place does not require consent, because listening to the conversation does not require consent.

For example, on the California page, it says "conversations that occur at any public gathering where one could expect to be overheard...are not covered by the statute. For example, when a television network used a hidden camera to videotape a conversation that took place at a business lunch meeting on a crowded outdoor patio of a public restaurant, the conduct did not violate the Penal Code’s prohibition against eavesdropping because it was not a “confidential communication.”

GUWonder Nov 14, 2011 2:08 am


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 17444930)
The fact that you are in an airport has nothing to do with it. It is a public place, and if what you are saying can be overheard, it can be recorded.

When it comes to recording by ordinary members of the public unable to operate under the cover of government authority allowances, it is not legal everywhere in the US to surreptetiously record the verbal communications of others.

That something can be overheard by a person does not necessarily mean it can be legally recorded, without the consent of the party being recorded, by the person doing the recording.

Global_Hi_Flyer Nov 14, 2011 7:56 am

At some airports, audio is recorded. For many years (I haven't paid attention recently) there were microphones hung over the x-ray belts at DFW.

Neutron Star Nov 14, 2011 8:12 am


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 17444930)
For example, on the California page, it says "conversations that occur at any public gathering where one could expect to be overheard...are not covered by the statute. For example, when a television network used a hidden camera to videotape a conversation that took place at a business lunch meeting on a crowded outdoor patio of a public restaurant, the conduct did not violate the Penal Code’s prohibition against eavesdropping because it was not a “confidential communication.”

It wasn't confidential because it could be overheard with normal hearing (i.e. no parabolic mic or other technology) in a crowded environment where people could hear other conversations without effort. If people were whispering and could not be heard by others with normal hearing, that's a different situation.

As was mentioned earlier, it comes down to an expectation of privacy. If in normal conversation you can be overheard (i.e. crowded restaurant) you don't have an expectation of privacy. If you are whispering, you cannot be overheard and therefore have an expectation that your words are private to the person to whom you are whispering.

Back to the topic at hand, if the TSA (or anyone for that matter) posts signage, videos, or another medium that notifies passengers that video and audio monitoring is conducted, they've removed the expectation of privacy because they've told you that they're listening.

TsaAbuseWatch Nov 14, 2011 9:58 am

They don't even record video if it implicates one of their guards.

afraidofflying Nov 14, 2011 9:11 pm

Is it correct to say that no one here knows for sure if airports record sound or not? In other words, unless signs (as in more than one and not located upside down in a tsa's lockerroom) are clearly visible then airports shoudn't be recording audio BUT they might and none of us has a clue what are our rights or lack of them when we are at airport. The same approach would be true to train, bus, taxis, and our own vehicles in the future because the same argument would be use that we have silently and unknowingly consent to wiretapping when we choose to use such luxuries instead of walking 60 miles to work or 2000 miles to see grandpa.

I wonder if an ACLU attorney would know. If they have to think about it then a commoner such as myself should not be expected to know and should resort to common sense of a regular law, which protects me from illegal wiretapping when there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. My definition of reasonable expectation of privacy includes situation when I am being subjected to search and seizure and questioning outside of my control I wish to be given an opportunity to either consent or decline being audio-recorded for any reason, one of which is possible self-incriminating for anything outside the scope of tsa's role and responsibility.

For example, if tsa asked me if I rented a vehicle during my trip I have to answer truthfully. If the next question is whether I drove above the speed limit at any point in time, I would have to tell the truth as it is a felony to lie to federal agent. However, I do not consent to being recorded and such recording is used against me at a later time in the area outside the scope of tsa's role and responsibility. In other words, their job is to prevent terrorists from boarding planes so they come up with a list of questions to profile passengers; however, answers that cause no flag regarding terrorism activity can't be used against me.

afraidofflying Nov 14, 2011 9:13 pm


Originally Posted by Global_Hi_Flyer (Post 17446436)
At some airports, audio is recorded. For many years (I haven't paid attention recently) there were microphones hung over the x-ray belts at DFW.

"At some airports" is as confusing as saying most of them probably do record sound. Whether they have a right to do it and inform us that they are doing it or they are not doing it or doing it illegally (meaning they can't use it in hte court of law unless actual prevention of an imminent and direct attack is prevent right at the moment.)

cbn42 Nov 14, 2011 9:53 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 17445404)

That something can be overheard by a person does not necessarily mean it can be legally recorded, without the consent of the party being recorded, by the person doing the recording.

If it is in a public place, then yes, it does. If it is a private place, then there is an expectation of privacy.

Neutron Star Nov 14, 2011 10:17 pm


Originally Posted by afraidofflying (Post 17451511)
Is it correct to say that no one here knows for sure if airports record sound or not? In other words, unless signs (as in more than one and not located upside down in a tsa's lockerroom) are clearly visible then airports shoudn't be recording audio BUT they might and none of us has a clue what are our rights or lack of them when we are at airport. The same approach would be true to train, bus, taxis, and our own vehicles in the future because the same argument would be use that we have silently and unknowingly consent to wiretapping when we choose to use such luxuries instead of walking 60 miles to work or 2000 miles to see grandpa.

I wonder if an ACLU attorney would know. If they have to think about it then a commoner such as myself should not be expected to know and should resort to common sense of a regular law, which protects me from illegal wiretapping when there is a reasonable expectation of privacy. My definition of reasonable expectation of privacy includes situation when I am being subjected to search and seizure and questioning outside of my control I wish to be given an opportunity to either consent or decline being audio-recorded for any reason, one of which is possible self-incriminating for anything outside the scope of tsa's role and responsibility.

For example, if tsa asked me if I rented a vehicle during my trip I have to answer truthfully. If the next question is whether I drove above the speed limit at any point in time, I would have to tell the truth as it is a felony to lie to federal agent. However, I do not consent to being recorded and such recording is used against me at a later time in the area outside the scope of tsa's role and responsibility. In other words, their job is to prevent terrorists from boarding planes so they come up with a list of questions to profile passengers; however, answers that cause no flag regarding terrorism activity can't be used against me.

If you're not sure if you've implicitly consented, just say to the questioning TSO "I don't consent to audio recording or monitoring." Now, if you're in a 1 party consent state, that won't do you any good, though you are within your rights to decline to answer BDO questions.

afraidofflying Nov 14, 2011 10:51 pm


Originally Posted by Neutron Star (Post 17451776)
If you're not sure if you've implicitly consented, just say to the questioning TSO "I don't consent to audio recording or monitoring." Now, if you're in a 1 party consent state, that won't do you any good, though you are within your rights to decline to answer BDO questions.

I believe one-party state argument applies to only two or more private parties and not a conversation between a private party and the authority or corporation where no crime is committed. For example, when you or I make a phone call to our bank or some place of business, there will be a recording stating that this called may be recorded. That is a warning and we have the right to continue with the call and that implies we consent to the recording. There is none of that at the airport or bank and I have never seen a bank or airport video with sound.

If they want to record sound, just inform the private citizens verbally and/or in a manner clearly understandable. That is all many of us ask for. Now if we don't know if we're being audio-recorded and the system is setup to do run all day the way video recording is, then there is no way for us to voice objection to it. Just like the video recording, by seeing it and not object to it, we are consenting to being record on video. But we don't see sound and need to be told that we are being monitored. As stated earlier, one little sign hidden somewhere is not enough. If one doesn't see the warning sign, one has a reasonable expectation to believe it doesn't exist. For example, you can smoke at places that don't have "No Smoking Allowed" sign(s) because there is no instruction prohibiting you from smoking.

GUWonder Nov 15, 2011 12:23 am


Originally Posted by cbn42 (Post 17451694)
If it is in a public place, then yes, it does.

No, it does not necessarily. Attempt to record a stranger's conversation without their consent at an airport restaurant at a Maryland airport or train station and then upload for public distribution the entirety of the recording on the internet from your home network. Attempt to do the same thing with a hidden recording device under a public park bench and distribute the entirety of the recording by uploading it for public distribution on the internet from your home network. You might then discover how it does not.

Global_Hi_Flyer Nov 15, 2011 5:23 am


Originally Posted by afraidofflying (Post 17451524)
"At some airports" is as confusing as saying most of them probably do record sound. Whether they have a right to do it and inform us that they are doing it or they are not doing it or doing it illegally (meaning they can't use it in hte court of law unless actual prevention of an imminent and direct attack is prevent right at the moment.)

The government exempts itself from many laws. The use of "sting" operations is but one example.


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