Secondary after swab alarm

Old Nov 4, 11, 10:48 pm
  #1  
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Question Secondary after swab alarm

Plus1 was departing IAH tonight and opted out while avoiding the NOS. His swab alarmed and they told him that they needed to secondary his secondary. They advised him that had to be done in private. He told them he wished for it to be done in public. They got a supervisor and all four times he asked, he was told no, that it had to be done in private. The fourth time, he was told that if he wanted to fly tonight , he would have to do the private screening.

I've checked the TSA sight, done a search on here, basic google search, etc. and cannot find that the secondary after swab alarm MUST be done in private. If I've missed something, please guide me. If not, we'll go from here. He has the supervisors name/ID.

Thanks, in advance, for any help.
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Old Nov 4, 11, 11:02 pm
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Originally Posted by baglady View Post
The fourth time, he was told that if he wanted to fly tonight , he would have to do the private screening.
At the very least I hope he demanded that a cop be present as a witness to the private screening.
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Old Nov 4, 11, 11:15 pm
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Originally Posted by baglady View Post
Plus1 was departing IAH tonight and opted out while avoiding the NOS. His swab alarmed and they told him that they needed to secondary his secondary. They advised him that had to be done in private. He told them he wished for it to be done in public. They got a supervisor and all four times he asked, he was told no, that it had to be done in private. The fourth time, he was told that if he wanted to fly tonight , he would have to do the private screening.

I've checked the TSA sight, done a search on here, basic google search, etc. and cannot find that the secondary after swab alarm MUST be done in private. If I've missed something, please guide me. If not, we'll go from here. He has the supervisors name/ID.

Thanks, in advance, for any help.
Best of luck to you guys!!

Seriously, imagine if you were a teenaged girl or young college student traveling by yourself and this happened. If it were your daughter, would you want her to go in a room with strangers all by herself? Even if the strangers are all female, have you seen some of the manly looking female TSO's?
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Old Nov 4, 11, 11:16 pm
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To my knowledge, there is no requirement of a forced private screening. I suspect they were going to ask him to remove clothing for a visual inspection (true strip search). Something that I would never stand for as a condition to fly on a commercial aircraft.

My first request would be a re-swab and patch run on a different machine -- as those devices can require recalibration and suffer failure due to operator error. Was that even offered in this case?
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Old Nov 4, 11, 11:22 pm
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Originally Posted by 10mmAutoFan View Post
To my knowledge, there is no requirement of a forced private screening. I suspect they were going to ask him to remove clothing for a visual inspection (true strip search). Something that I would never stand for as a condition to fly on a commercial aircraft.

My first request would be a re-swab and patch run on a different machine -- as those devices can require recalibration and suffer failure due to operator error. Was that even offered in this case?
hmm, do you interact much with the TSA? Whatever they say at the airport, you do. They don't care what their website says or what the law is, the TSO is always right at the airport, no matter what.
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Old Nov 4, 11, 11:54 pm
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Supposedly the difference is the patdown in private includes the rubbing of the groin and butt area several times. For some reason, TSA does not seem to want the rest of the public to witness it.
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Old Nov 5, 11, 12:09 am
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Originally Posted by Smaug View Post
Supposedly the difference is the patdown in private includes the rubbing of the groin and butt area several times. For some reason, TSA does not seem to want the rest of the public to witness it.
Yes, I believe that pretty much sums it up. I know his last opt out earlier this week at EWR, the TSO was very uncomfortable doing the groping in public. I suspect he thought he was too much of a man to be groping up another man in public . There was no removal of clothing involved tonight, though he said some extra groping was indeed involved. He was certain it was not necessary to do it in private; voiced it repeatedly; but after being told the fourth time by the sup it had to be done if he wanted to fly tonight, he gave in.

I truly appreciate everyone's prompt replies back.
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Old Nov 5, 11, 1:00 am
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Originally Posted by average_passenger View Post
hmm, do you interact much with the TSA? Whatever they say at the airport, you do. They don't care what their website says or what the law is, the TSO is always right at the airport, no matter what.

Yes, I interact with them weekly as I travel throughout the country. When their requests of me are too great -- I leave, rather than subject myself to sexual assault.

So far, I've only had to walk away from a screening check point after the process had begun once -- and that was at IND (I described it in another post). Usually, when confronted with facts - the supervisors back off of the intimidation game, and comply within their actual limits of "authority".

The courts have ruled that TSOs are not law enforcement officers, and may not search, seize, or detain. Your relationship and interaction with TSOs is one of a voluntary nature -- a consenual administrative search. You are completely free to stop the process walk away at any time. You may not get to fly that day, but you can gather your things and walk away.

Heaven help the local airport LEO that chooses to act outside his/her scope in response to emotional intimidation techniques of the TSA - and places me under arrest because of it. I'll win in court and the officer and department will be spending a lot of time in depositions and the insurance carrier for their law enforcement liability coverage will be writing a check.

My profession is that of a risk management, safety and security consultant to government entities. I work with law enforcement agencies throughout the US -- and although my role is to try to keep bad things from happening (protecting the LEOs from claims/lawsuits) to them, I will not hesitate to use my knowledge and legal resources (i.e. attorneys versed in law enforcement liability claims) to file an action under 42 USC 1983 if my civil rights are violated.

There are a bunch of under-trained LEOs in this country. My business partner and I have made a very good living by traveling around the country providing law enforcement liability seminars - trying to educate LEOs about 42 USC 1983, and the personal ramifications of violating it. It is only a matter of time before a successful case occurs with a TSO. Unlike the state and local LEOs - where their departments share in the liability through vicarious liability (negligent training, negligent supervision, etc.), the approach to the claims with the TSA will be that of suing the individual TSO, and their supervisors individually -- rather than the TSA as an agency. As a matter of fact, cases are currently in process in several jurisdictions.

Last edited by 10mmAutoFan; Nov 5, 11 at 1:14 am
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Old Nov 5, 11, 1:07 am
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Originally Posted by 10mmAutoFan View Post
Yes, I interact with them weekly as I travel throughout the country. When their requests of me are too great -- I leave, rather than subject myself to sexual assault.

So far, I've only had to walk away from a screening check point after the process had begun once -- and that was at IND (I described it in another post). Usually, when confronted with facts - the supervisors back off of the intimidation game, and comply within their actual limits of "authority".

The courts have ruled that TSOs are not law enforcement officers, and may not search, seize, or detain. Your relationship and interaction with TSOs is one of a voluntary nature -- a consenual administrative search. You are completely free to stop the process walk away at any time. You may not get to fly that day, but you can gather your things and walk away.

Heaven help the local airport LEO that chooses to act outside his/her scope in response to emotional intimidation techniques of the TSA - and places me under arrest because of it. I'll win in court and the officer and department will be spending a lot of time in depositions and the insurance carrier for their law enforcement liability coverage will be writing a check.

My profession is that of a risk management, safety and security consultant to government entities. I work with law enforcement agencies throughout the US -- and although my role is to try to keep bad things from happening (protecting the LEOs from claims/lawsuits) to them, I will not hesitate to use my knowledge and legal resources (i.e. attorneys versed in law enforcement liability claims) to file an action under 42 USC 1983 if my civil rights are violated.
I hope you didn't think I was trying to insult you!! I wish I had your knowledge. That's great that they stop being intimidating with you. There are groups of people that the TSA will continue to intimidate -groups such as elderly citizens, handicapped people, cute young girls, and children.

BTW, You say that you can stop the screening process at any time? What about the John Tyner (don't touch my junk) case?
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Old Nov 5, 11, 1:20 am
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Originally Posted by average_passenger View Post
BTW, You say that you can stop the screening process at any time? What about the John Tyner (don't touch my junk) case?
He was one of the first "test cases" that gained media notariety. It was instrumental (along with pressure from professional aviation associations) in the TSA abandoning their efforts to subject uniformed flight crew members to the "scope or grope" procedure.

Phil Mocek's case is another good example of the turning tide for the TSA:

http://blogs.seattleweekly.com/daily...ocek_suing.php
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