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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   McPaper: Next layer of air security: "Chat-downs on top of pat-downs?" (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1269211-mcpaper-next-layer-air-security-chat-downs-top-pat-downs.html)

placebo_68 Oct 16, 2011 1:19 pm

CBP doing checks @ IAH
 

Originally Posted by FriendlySkies (Post 17276611)
Since when did carrying large amounts of cash become a crime?

:rolleyes:

Not TSA but CBP were stopping people on the jetway on Oct 14th and asking how much money they were carrying. Never seen this before on a flight leaving the US

amanuensis Oct 16, 2011 3:46 pm

I flew out of SLC this morning and as I was having my DL and boarding pass examined, the TSA official asked me for my father's name. I assumed that the question was part of the new procedures -- trying to see if I would stumble or hesitate answering something that almost anyone would be able to reply to immediately who was not flying under a false name. But I was wrong. Turns out that she thought that she knew my father. So she was just chatting.

DIFIN Oct 17, 2011 5:15 am


Originally Posted by erictank (Post 17279610)
The problem is, I also am wrongly subjected to what they deserve.:mad::mad::mad:

It's getting to where we need to start learning German - and giving stiff-armed salutes to those interrogating us - in order to properly respond to these jackbooted thugs. It honestly is getting to be like something out of a WW2 movie and I'm astonished at the complacency of the general population, who appear to believe that "it can't happen here" simply because, well, "This is 'MURIKA, bah GOD!!" :rolleyes: There's nothing magical about this country, it's only the actions and attitudes of its people which prevent the sort of atrocities they blithely assert can't happen here - and those same people are whittling (or CHOPPING) away at the barriers which prevent them.

I have been giving the nazi salute for the last 12 years.

In regard to questioning by the bdo, my reply will be "I TAKE THE FIFTH"

TheRoadie Oct 17, 2011 8:55 am


Originally Posted by amanuensis (Post 17284060)
... Turns out that she thought that she knew my father. So she was just chatting.

Or lying.

clrankin Oct 17, 2011 9:41 am


Originally Posted by amanuensis (Post 17284060)
Turns out that she thought that she knew my father. So she was just chatting.

I'd say it's more likely that you were SPOTted by someone who was good at lying, unless you were flying out of a smaller airport.

I wonder what TSA's reaction would be if I went to the bank and withdrew a couple thousand dollars, but bundled it to look like several thousand, and then went through a checkpoint with it. The big question, of course, is if enough angst and ire could be drawn to warrant a civil rights lawsuit by only refusing to answer their questions around the source of the money - not baiting them, mind you, but politely refusing to answer something I'm not required to answer.

G_Wolf Oct 17, 2011 12:56 pm


Originally Posted by clrankin (Post 17287651)
I'd say it's more likely that you were SPOTted by someone who was good at lying, unless you were flying out of a smaller airport.

I wonder what TSA's reaction would be if I went to the bank and withdrew a couple thousand dollars, but bundled it to look like several thousand, and then went through a checkpoint with it. The big question, of course, is if enough angst and ire could be drawn to warrant a civil rights lawsuit by only refusing to answer their questions around the source of the money - not baiting them, mind you, but politely refusing to answer something I'm not required to answer.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly would you take a couple thousand dollars, and bundle it to look like several thousand? Also, what in your mind is the difference between "a couple" and "several"?

amanuensis Oct 17, 2011 1:30 pm


Originally Posted by TheRoadie (Post 17287376)
Or lying.

That thought did occur to me after I made my post. But since I am a professional genealogist, I love to talk about my ancestors, so I really don't care that much if her explanation was a pretext. Maybe I should have told her not only my father's name but also the name of my father's father -- and his father, and his father, and his father. :cool: "My father is Ralph, his father was Willard, his father was Robert, his father was William, his father was John ... "

InkUnderNails Oct 17, 2011 5:25 pm


Originally Posted by amanuensis (Post 17284060)
I flew out of SLC this morning and as I was having my DL and boarding pass examined, the TSA official asked me for my father's name. I assumed that the question was part of the new procedures -- trying to see if I would stumble or hesitate answering something that almost anyone would be able to reply to immediately who was not flying under a false name. But I was wrong. Turns out that she thought that she knew my father. So she was just chatting.

"I do not know, my mother never would talk about him, but it is a painful reminder of my tragic childhood that I thought I had put behind me years ago, and now you bring it up. Why would you do that?"

Yep, that'll work for me.

ladytraveler Oct 18, 2011 10:50 am

Genealogy as an anti-chatting tool
 

Originally Posted by amanuensis

I flew out of SLC this morning and as I was having my DL and boarding pass examined, the TSA official asked me for my father's name. I assumed that the question was part of the new procedures -- trying to see if I would stumble or hesitate answering something that almost anyone would be able to reply to immediately who was not flying under a false name. But I was wrong. Turns out that she thought that she knew my father. So she was just chatting.
This absolutely does work! Genealogical conversation causes glazed eyes and somnolence in its victims! :D

ladytraveler

Pete838 Oct 18, 2011 11:13 am


Originally Posted by RadioGirl (Post 17279573)
They don't; at least not in any country I've been to over the last 20+ years. I've nothing against Mr Jones, but I'm willing to bet he hasn't been to Europe in the last 20 years, if at all.

Was given a series of questions just a few weeks back going through security for a DL flight STR>ATL. German airport security asked a series of questions regarding my destination, name, souvenirs, etc. while examining my passport/BP. You could tell he was paying more attention to my mannerisms than the actual answers. Very polite, but strictly business. Much preferred to the scowling, power tripping high school dropouts I encounter at home.


Originally Posted by FriendlySkies (Post 17276611)
Since when did carrying large amounts of cash become a crime?

Over $10k has been the threshold as long as I can remember, but since it's impossible to tell the value of a pile of money without counting it, sometimes a much smaller amount gets their attention. Most of the screeners have never seen $10k cash and don't know what it looks like.

FriendlySkies Oct 18, 2011 11:15 am


Originally Posted by Pete838 (Post 17294291)
Over $10k has been the threshold as long as I can remember, but since it's impossible to tell the value of a pile of money without counting it, sometimes a much smaller amount gets their attention. Most of the screeners have never seen $10k cash and don't know what it looks like.

But it's not a crime if you report it to CBP.. and that's when you go out of the country. AFAIK, there is NO law that says you are not allowed to carry 10K+.

Pete838 Oct 18, 2011 12:09 pm


Originally Posted by FriendlySkies (Post 17294314)
But it's not a crime if you report it to CBP.. and that's when you go out of the country. AFAIK, there is NO law that says you are not allowed to carry 10K+.

Of course it is not a crime, but even a $10k cash banking transaction gets you extra attention. TSA likes to think of itself as a law enforcement agency, and will act as if they are discovering contraband during the screening process. I cannot tell you if this is still the policy, but an old post on Flyertalk suggests that there is or was an operational directive (OD) to refer to other law enforcement a pax carrying a large amount of cash.

greentips Oct 18, 2011 2:17 pm


Originally Posted by Houston.Business (Post 17283251)
A lot of people just make it harder on themselves. Smile and be polite. Anything other than my information on my BP / DL / Passport is not given. I tell them it's Business, and it's confidential with my Company. 1 TSO insisted on more information, so I simply smiled, handed him my Business Card and told him "Feel free to call my office for any information you may require."

Good ideas.
T: Where are you going today?
G: Miami.
T: Why are you going to Miami?
G: South Beach.[non sequitur]
T: Have a nice trip. or Why are you going to South Beach?
G[option 2]: For the waters.

mikeef Oct 19, 2011 8:49 am


Originally Posted by amanuensis (Post 17284060)
I flew out of SLC this morning and as I was having my DL and boarding pass examined, the TSA official asked me for my father's name. I assumed that the question was part of the new procedures -- trying to see if I would stumble or hesitate answering something that almost anyone would be able to reply to immediately who was not flying under a false name. But I was wrong. Turns out that she thought that she knew my father. So she was just chatting.

Uh oh, I got in a conversation with a barista at my local Starbucks and she thought she might have known several of my relatives in NJ. Do you think she was just Spotting me? Has the TSA infested SBUX?

Seriously, these guys are ridiculous.


Originally Posted by Houston.Business (Post 17283251)
A lot of people just make it harder on themselves. Smile and be polite. Anything other than my information on my BP / DL / Passport is not given. I tell them it's Business, and it's confidential with my Company. 1 TSO insisted on more information, so I simply smiled, handed him my Business Card and told him "Feel free to call my office for any information you may require."

Wow, no way would I give one of those guys one of my business cards. Hopefully, you have a secretary or somebody who answers your phone, but some of the TSOs I've met came across a little stalky.

As to the article...


They're looking for behavioral clues to possible deception, and hostility that warrants further scrutiny or a referral to law-enforcement officials. Authorities won't describe the physical clues, but research has focused on liars averting their eyes, having an inconsistent head gesture or wringing their hands.
Yes, I avert my eyes so I don't start laughing. I'm not sure what an "inconsistent head gesture" is. And I wring my hands in disgust at how my tax dollars are being wasted.


Chat-downs are an extension of a program called SPOT, for Screening of Passengers by Observation Techniques, that began after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. It now fields 3,000 officers at 161 airports at an annual cost of $212 million.

From May 2004 to August 2008, 2 billion people boarded aircraft at SPOT airports and 152,000 were referred for secondary questioning, according to a Government Accountability Office (GAO) report in May 2010. About 14,000 passengers were referred to law enforcement officers and 1,100 were arrested during that period.

Rather than charging anyone with terrorism, the SPOT detentions included 427 arrests of undocumented immigrants, 209 for outstanding warrants, 166 for fraudulent documents and 125 for drug possession.

Meanwhile, GAO checked 16 people who had been charged in six terrorist plots during that period and found they had passed unhindered at least 23 times through eight airports where SPOT officers worked.

"Although outstanding warrants and the possession of fraudulent or suspect documents could be associated with a terrorist threat, TSA officials did not identify any direct links to terrorism or any threat to the aviation system in any of these cases," the report said.
$212 million? I would have told them the bolded portion for half of that.


"You've got to realize you're looking for needles in a haystack," says Paul Ekman, a psychology professor emeritus at University of California-San Francisco, who helped develop the SPOT program. "They don't appear very often. It's going to take you a long time to know whether a program is being successful."

Ekman says people's noses don't grow if they're lying. However, he says, they give off clues beyond facial expressions when they're lying or have hostile intentions. Physical tics from head to toe can emerge, he says.

"Concealment looks like concealment," says Ekman, a consultant on the Fox TV show Lie to Me.
Cool, he's on a tv show! Wonder if that's why he's the professor who got picked. Nice ability to name-drop.


The TSA says it isn't profiling passengers, but simply questioning everyone in line for several hours each day.

That's in contrast to Israel's system of questioning passengers, in which Ron says Israeli security collects much more information before a traveler arrives at the airport to determine how much scrutiny a person should receive at the airport.

Israeli profiling explicitly labels a 25-year-old Palestinian from Gaza as a higher risk aboard a plane than an elderly Holocaust survivor, Ron says. He acknowledges that system wouldn't work in the United States because of laws against racial and religious discrimination.
Exactly. This isn't Israel. Forgetting about the racial profiling business, talking to passengers is one of many, many things that the Israelis do. They know exactly who you are by the time you get to the airport and, if they don't, you're going to be spending a long time there. It should be insulting to the intelligence of travelers that the TSA would even mention Israeli security in the same discussion as BDOs.

Mike

zambonisk Oct 21, 2011 3:17 am


Originally Posted by erictank (Post 17279610)
The problem is, I also am wrongly subjected to what they deserve.:mad::mad::mad:

It's getting to where we need to start learning German - and giving stiff-armed salutes to those interrogating us - in order to properly respond to these jackbooted thugs. It honestly is getting to be like something out of a WW2 movie and I'm astonished at the complacency of the general population, who appear to believe that "it can't happen here" simply because, well, "This is 'MURIKA, bah GOD!!" :rolleyes: There's nothing magical about this country, it's only the actions and attitudes of its people which prevent the sort of atrocities they blithely assert can't happen here - and those same people are whittling (or CHOPPING) away at the barriers which prevent them.

I just prefer to call them the Gestapo....


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