Incident with my children

Old Oct 10, 11, 3:43 am
  #1  
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Incident with my children

Incident with my children

2 days ago I was traveling with my 3 children (11 12, 14) out of DFW.

The ID checker asked them for their names and where there were going.

I told the ID checker that I did not give her permission to talk to my children directly and that any questions would need to come through me.

She ignored my request and against my request asked my children again and my children started to comply to which I stopped the process again. She asked for a supervisor.

The supervisor stated that the children had to answer. To which I stated they did not and that I would like to see in writing where it said they had to. The supervisor stated it was a secret directive (to which I thought he should not be mentioning secrets in the open like that ).

The supervisor stated they were also looking out for kidnap children (generically, not specifically)...and that is why it was important to ask for their names. I told him that that was not part of his job.

Meanwhile the ID checker was telling my daughter I was wrong.

The supervisor asked again and my children complied against my wishes and as I repeatedly told the supervisor to talk to me.

Then...I opted against the nudo-scope

My children also opted out, but were not patted down.

One agent moved my stuff from the belt to the screening and left stuff behind at the belt. He SCREAMED to follow him, to which I stated I was still missing pieces and it was my responsibility to know where my stuff was at all time. He SCREAMED and BARKED a few more times, but I stayed in the middle between the screening area and the belt.

Got a thorough pat down.

My kids where humiliated. Told them not comply with rules that were made up, but could tell they were trained to comply with badge a little more today.

** added: we are a family of 5 AA executive platinum...they were humiliated with me (the attention from everyone)...they were not scared. The point is that [from what I know] TSA should not be addressing children directly, they are not in the child kidnap business, they should not be referring to secret directives. TSA should follow the rules they have set for themselves

Interested in your comments

Last edited by AAaLot; Oct 10, 11 at 5:44 am
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Old Oct 10, 11, 4:10 am
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I agree with you in theory, but in practice your kids were caught in the middle of your philosophical debate with people in authority who had just enough power to make your life and theirs miserable and downright frightening for the next few hours, or a whole day.

This is one situation where it would have been better to not fly than to subject your kids to such risk.
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Old Oct 10, 11, 4:34 am
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Originally Posted by WillCAD View Post
I agree with you in theory, but in practice your kids were caught in the middle of your philosophical debate with people in authority who had just enough power to make your life and theirs miserable and downright frightening for the next few hours, or a whole day.

This is one situation where it would have been better to not fly than to subject your kids to such risk.
Well said, WillCAD! ^
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Old Oct 10, 11, 5:14 am
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Your children should have responded in the following way.
1. Calling out "Stranger Danger" 3 times, then refusing to speak to anyone other then you(parent) or a uniformed Law enforcement officer.
After this point you could guide the child's answers. Such as 'Yes, Michael you can tell the person your first and last name ONLY' 'No Michael we don't tell people were we are going or who we are seeing'

I am not a parent, so I can not advise if this would truly work. BUT suspect it would get enough attention to make things a little more interesting IF something should happen.
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Old Oct 10, 11, 5:35 am
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It's my belief that you need to sit down and have another long talk with your children. You need to emphasize that these people are NOT law enforcement, that their only job is to look for WEI, not kidnapped children, and that they, your children, are NEVER to tell anyone where they are traveling to.

That said, I can think of only one or two reasons why children should be subjected to air travel and the perils of the checkpoint.
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Old Oct 10, 11, 5:44 am
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** added: we are a family of 5 AA executive platinum...they were humiliated with me (the attention from everyone)...they were not scared. The point is that [from what I know] TSA should not be addressing children directly, they are not in the child kidnap business, they should not be referring to secret directives. TSA should follow the rules they have set for themselves
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Old Oct 10, 11, 6:12 am
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Originally Posted by AAaLot View Post
** added: we are a family of 5 AA executive platinum...they were humiliated with me (the attention from everyone)...they were not scared. The point is that [from what I know] TSA should not be addressing children directly, they are not in the child kidnap business, they should not be referring to secret directives. TSA should follow the rules they have set for themselves
Your kids are young and you are going to humiliate them countless times in the upcoming years.

^^ to your last two sentences.
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Old Oct 10, 11, 6:45 am
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Originally Posted by AAaLot View Post
Incident with my children


Meanwhile the ID checker was telling my daughter I was wrong.


Interested in your comments
Wow. Inexcusable to undermine you like that. You're contacting the airline right?
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Old Oct 10, 11, 7:46 am
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Originally Posted by doober View Post
It's my belief that you need to sit down and have another long talk with your children. You need to emphasize that these people are NOT law enforcement, that their only job is to look for WEI, not kidnapped children, and that they, your children, are NEVER to tell anyone where they are traveling to.
I agree.

Bruce
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Old Oct 10, 11, 8:19 am
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Originally Posted by AAaLot View Post
Incident with my children

....
^^^^^^^
We'd be better off if everyone did this. This is not CBP; they have no right nor reason to be questioning your children, nor do they have any right to even question whether they are yours without some cause. An LEO on the street has no right to demand an answer, barring reasonable cause.

TSA is seeing how far they can push this, and it is clear they will push this as far as they can get away with it.

In the end, the increasing hostility toward passengers even passengers' children??? shown by TSA's activity is going to further contribute to the downturn in air traffic. TSA's behavior over the past year has obviously already cost airlines money and this new stuff won't help. How's the new Risk Based Security working for you folks?
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Old Oct 10, 11, 8:32 am
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Forget the Airline go after TSA directly and start with your Congress Reps and DOT. I sent a complaint to DOT that included something about TSA and they actually went after TSA to get an answer. Quite effectively too.

Originally Posted by MrsGraupel View Post
Wow. Inexcusable to undermine you like that. You're contacting the airline right?
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Old Oct 10, 11, 8:36 am
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Originally Posted by Flahusky View Post
Your children should have responded in the following way.
1. Calling out "Stranger Danger" 3 times, then refusing to speak to anyone other then you(parent) or a uniformed Law enforcement officer.
After this point you could guide the child's answers. Such as 'Yes, Michael you can tell the person your first and last name ONLY' 'No Michael we don't tell people were we are going or who we are seeing'

I am not a parent, so I can not advise if this would truly work. BUT suspect it would get enough attention to make things a little more interesting IF something should happen.
No, the Stranger Danger thing would not go over well; it would be a stunt that would draw the ire of both the TSOs (which can cause you disruptions and retaliation) and possibly the actual LEOs in the terminal (which can get you citations or even arrests).

Guiding the child's answers is not a bad idea, but only if you cave to the idea of the TSO's speaking directly to your kids in teh first place, which I do not. I'm with AAaLot on that point - TSOs have no authority to interrogate minor children without the permission of their parent or legal guardian.

Originally Posted by doober View Post
It's my belief that you need to sit down and have another long talk with your children. You need to emphasize that these people are NOT law enforcement, that their only job is to look for WEI, not kidnapped children, and that they, your children, are NEVER to tell anyone where they are traveling to.

That said, I can think of only one or two reasons why children should be subjected to air travel and the perils of the checkpoint.
I have to disagree with most of your post.

AAaLot's kids, according to his original post, are 11, 12, and 14 years of age. The 14yo will likely understand all of that abstract political rhetoric, but it's pretty likely that the 11 and 12yo kids will not. I'm not fond of child indoctrination, myself, and I believe that trying to teach such youngsters the intricacies of the limits of TSOs' powers under the constitution is not much more than indoctrinating them to OUR way of thinking rather than the TSA's way of thinking.

However, I cannot give better advice than to teach kids never to reveal travel details to anyone - destination, method, duration, reason, companions, none of it. I have been the victim of a crime related to such lapses myself in the distant past, and my family learned a very hard lesson from it that we have never forgotten.

As to whether someone wants to fly or subject their kids to the perils of the checkpoint, that's up to the individual parents. I don't like the idea of kids getting caught beween TSOs on a power trip and outraged parents who want to push back (as we all want to push back, within the limits of the law), but it AAaLot wants to take his kids to visit Grandma, see the Grand Canyon, attend a seminar, or throw a bunch of money at Mickey Mouse in Orlando, that's his decision.
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Old Oct 10, 11, 8:45 am
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Originally Posted by WillCAD View Post
No, the Stranger Danger thing would not go over well; it would be a stunt that would draw the ire of both the TSOs (which can cause you disruptions and retaliation) and possibly the actual LEOs in the terminal (which can get you citations or even arrests).

Guiding the child's answers is not a bad idea, but only if you cave to the idea of the TSO's speaking directly to your kids in teh first place, which I do not. I'm with AAaLot on that point - TSOs have no authority to interrogate minor children without the permission of their parent or legal guardian.



I have to disagree with most of your post.

AAaLot's kids, according to his original post, are 11, 12, and 14 years of age. The 14yo will likely understand all of that abstract political rhetoric, but it's pretty likely that the 11 and 12yo kids will not. I'm not fond of child indoctrination, myself, and I believe that trying to teach such youngsters the intricacies of the limits of TSOs' powers under the constitution is not much more than indoctrinating them to OUR way of thinking rather than the TSA's way of thinking.

However, I cannot give better advice than to teach kids never to reveal travel details to anyone - destination, method, duration, reason, companions, none of it. I have been the victim of a crime related to such lapses myself in the distant past, and my family learned a very hard lesson from it that we have never forgotten.

As to whether someone wants to fly or subject their kids to the perils of the checkpoint, that's up to the individual parents. I don't like the idea of kids getting caught beween TSOs on a power trip and outraged parents who want to push back (as we all want to push back, within the limits of the law), but it AAaLot wants to take his kids to visit Grandma, see the Grand Canyon, attend a seminar, or throw a bunch of money at Mickey Mouse in Orlando, that's his decision.
A parent's job is to "indoctrinate" their children. We teach them manners, values, ethics, etc., from the time they are babies. 11 and 12 year olds certainly can and should be learning the limits of the TSA's powers under the Constitution and that the TSA willingly chooses to disregard said Constituion. An education in civics needs to begin very early in life.
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Old Oct 10, 11, 10:13 am
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Originally Posted by nachtnebel View Post
^^^^^^^
We'd be better off if everyone did this. This is not CBP; they have no right nor reason to be questioning your children, nor do they have any right to even question whether they are yours without some cause. An LEO on the street has no right to demand an answer, barring reasonable cause.

TSA is seeing how far they can push this, and it is clear they will push this as far as they can get away with it.

In the end, the increasing hostility toward passengers even passengers' children??? shown by TSA's activity is going to further contribute to the downturn in air traffic. TSA's behavior over the past year has obviously already cost airlines money and this new stuff won't help. How's the new Risk Based Security working for you folks?
Yeah, TSA has been getting worse and worse over the past year, starting with the proliferation of nudoscopes. They keep pushing the boundaries and unless we push back they will subvert the few liberties we have left.
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Old Oct 10, 11, 10:26 am
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How to prepare for a situation like this? These kids were ages 11, 12 and 14 . . . but they could just as well have been 5, 7, and 10. My recommendation would be something as simple as telling the kids, well in advance, "Don't speak to anyone you don't know without my permission, even when I'm with you."

What a parent doesn't want to get into is what happened here - multiple strange adults all approaching at once, the kids answering the strangers' questions, the parent telling the kids not to answer . . . it quickly turns into utter chaos!

Bottom line, in my opinion, is that the checkpoint isn't the place to teach the kids how to behave. If they answer questions after being told in advance that they shouldn't, so be it. Kids make mistakes and you deal with it later.

All attention should instead be focused on the TSO's. To the extent possible, get their attention back on you and make your point that they should not be speaking to your kids . . . as the OP attempted to do here.

The problem with all of this is that I'd have a much more urgent concern: are the kids going to make it through the checkpoint without being groped? And if "playing nice" and allowing my kids to answer inappropriate questions means less TSO hostility and less chance of an actual physical assault on the kids, I might be inclined to go along with it.

No, I don't think that's a choice that any parent should have to make. But if, for whatever reason, I had to get my kids on a plane, then my inclination would probably be to choose my battles carefully.
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