FlyerTalk Forums - Is there any "list" maintained of opt-out passengers?

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- - Is there any "list" maintained of opt-out passengers? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1256089-there-any-list-maintained-opt-out-passengers.html)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 17065196)

TSA, like most Federal agencies, can propose administrative sanctions such as fines. But, the pax need not agree to the proposal and has a right to a hearing in front of an administrative law judge and can then litigate in the Federal courts from there.

I never said someone could not contest their regulatory fine before an administrative judge.

TSA cannot impose, rather it proposes. It's a common misperception.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkhuggins (Post 17066013)

Except for the money the passenger spent in disputing the charges. The passenger loses money either way. The only question is who gets paid.

People on this site have fixated on that silly STSO in California chasing after the "don't touch my junk" guy screaming about an $11,000 fine. It is brought up all the time. Yet STSOs do not fine people, and I have explained this before. Regulatory fines passengers, and they do not do so lightly. I have a friend who works in regulatory, and there must be a clear violation of federal regulation/law or they will not hand out a fine. Oh, a STSO can send one in, but regulatory will do nothing about it if its just a passenger who says some bad words.

As such, almost all fines assessed hold up when people contest them. Examples I know about, a passenger grabs a LGA out of a screeners hand when told it has to be test to be allowed through (medical LGA), and dumps the content in the trash can. A passenger is caught bringing ammunition through a checkpoint; caught with a firearm. A flight crew member while NOT on duty attempts to use their identification to get through the checkpoint to fly and NOT have their bags screened.

Flimsy stuff such as giving a screener a finger may upset a STSO, and the STSO may gather a passengers info and send it to regulatory, but it will not result in a fine. Thus, most fines hold up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 17066266)

TSA cannot impose, rather it proposes. It's a common misperception.

If you wish to argue semantics in an informal forum, fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 17064420)

Oh, I didn't say I agree that the pax should be fined, I just stated that based upon my experience of what was actually happening. Or specifically, that was what a STSO or TSM was going to attempt to do... ;)

And no, that specific example is NOT a fineable offense. And no, that example is not interfering with the screening process.

But as I stated above we simply do not have enough info to state one way or the other as to what EXACTLY the OPs wife did. I can only tell you from the description it appeared they were gathering his wife's info - not to make a list, but to send it to regulatory to fine her. However, if shes not fined, she will never know, I don't think (I could be wrong about that).

No-we're on the same page :). I was just asking in my example if those were "fineable" offenses and yes, we do need a lot more information on this "incident" before any judgement can be made/passed.

It really is amazing.

If I was to walk up to someone on a street, and "Propose" to them that I felt they had done something wrong, and that they should give me their money, or I would be forced to take action against them... I'd be called a mugger.

When the government does it, it's "Administrative law".

Nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SATTSO (Post 17063658)

You are correct in asking how big of a "scene" she created. If the police were involved, it is safe to say it was a big scene, or at least one of the STSOs thought so. Of course, that is subjective.

At AUS, the TDC called the police for passenger failing to speak their name. The three-striper was called later. Are you saying the police should not have been called by the TDC?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 17065196)

The sole purpose of the fine proposal is to let the target pax know what is being sought. It is the equivalent of saying, "we think that you violated the law and propose to settle the matter for $X."

1) If it were a law violation, it would be referred to the USA or AUSA for prosecution. This would be a violation of a rule or regulation of the agency.
2) In many agencies, the notice of apparent liability (fine proposal) is used to try and get the target to admit to a violation.

Quote:

If the target pax disputes the charges, all bets are off. If the pax prevails = $0. If the pax loses, fines can be a lot more.

Given that it's a kangaroo court where the same agency that proposes the fine adjudicates the protest, it is unlikely that the pax prevails. The whole structure is designed to cost the pax money even if they protest.

The structure is also designed so that the TSA need not meet the burden of proof that would be required in a violation of the law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Often1 (Post 17066266)

TSA cannot impose, rather it proposes. It's a common misperception.

Wrong. The TSA (and/or it's parent DHS) both proposes and imposes a fine. If the pax protests, it ultimately ends up at an ALJ, who imposes. At that stage, the pax can file a lawsuit or refuse to pay - both cases end up in Federal court.

Incidentally, as I read this case, the police were called. Since there was no arrest for disorderly conduct or other violation of the law, one might assume that the "scene" did not reach the point of illegal behavior. If TSA is determined to retaliate, I suppose it can fine for "interfering with screening".

OP: this may end up in the TSA's incident reporting system. That can lead nowhere, or it could end up placing her on a watch list, depending on how much they want to retaliate. You'll never know what they write in that system - it's not available even under FOIA. The decision as to what the TSA does with it is NOT made by the local folks but rather some faceless person in a nondescript building. If, for some reason, the local folks decide to exaggerate or play loose with the facts, there's still a risk of ending up on the TSAs radar in the future.

OP: You have the right to request copies of the video tape the airport cameras took of this encounter. This may be useful to you in creating a complaint against the TSA and the airport.

Write everything out while it is fresh in her mind - which gate, flight, description of the people involved if their names are unknown to you, flight number, time of day, what was said, etc.