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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Children as tools of terror (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1205292-children-tools-terror.html)

Saitek Apr 14, 2011 9:15 am

The TSA isnt about security, its about training the public to be obediant.

jfunk138 Apr 14, 2011 9:25 am


Originally Posted by Saitek (Post 16217209)
The TSA isnt about security, its about training the public to be obediant.

Why is it so hard to get this point across to people? Honestly I'm shocked at the number of people who think it is a good thing this poor girl received the groping.

I used to think it was because people were clueless because they had just never seen it happen. The Kettle's fly once every couple of years, don't get patted down and think we're crying about nothing.

Then videos of children being aggressively groped surface and they see what is going on AND STILL SUPPORT IT???? Seriously? You have no problem with strangers sticking their hands in children's pants?

jcwoman Apr 14, 2011 9:29 am

I think then it goes into the territory of "at least it aint me" (my family). Which isn't any better, actually. But truly the definition of herd mentality. The outliers get eaten, so let me just huddle up into the herd and be safe.

VelvetJones Apr 14, 2011 9:48 am


Originally Posted by jcwoman (Post 16217289)
I think then it goes into the territory of "at least it aint me" (my family). Which isn't any better, actually. But truly the definition of herd mentality. The outliers get eaten, so let me just huddle up into the herd and be safe.

This is the same mentality that drives the pro-war crowd. It's not them or their children getting sent to some foreign country, putting their a** on the line. Want to end the 'War on Terror', reinstate the draft and remove the college exemption. You'll see us out of Iraq and Afghanistan as fast as they can bring'em home.

chollie Apr 14, 2011 9:56 am


Originally Posted by jfunk138 (Post 16217261)
Why is it so hard to get this point across to people? Honestly I'm shocked at the number of people who think it is a good thing this poor girl received the groping.

I used to think it was because people were clueless because they had just never seen it happen. The Kettle's fly once every couple of years, don't get patted down and think we're crying about nothing.

Then videos of children being aggressively groped surface and they see what is going on AND STILL SUPPORT IT???? Seriously? You have no problem with strangers sticking their hands in children's pants?

Read the supportive comments. There has been a concerted effort to develop a culture of fear in this country, coupled with an assurance that surrendering our rights and dignity is the only way to be safe.

It has been a wildly successful campaign.

bordeauxboy Apr 14, 2011 11:01 am

If all you want to do is take out an airplane full of passengers, it would be much easier to recruit an airport or airline employee to plant a device. Children are too likely to go off mission ;).

The level of screening staff receives borders on the ludicrous - at the last four airports I have used, it appeared to be less than it was before the Gulf War...THE FIRST ONE!

jkhuggins Apr 14, 2011 12:48 pm


Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 16216432)
Google is your friend. Don't take my word for it, do some research on what actual security professionals think of the 3-1-1 rule - and other nonsensical rules the TSA uses.

That's actually kinda the point I was trying to make.

Clearly, TSA believes that extremely small quantitites of substances present a clear and present danger to commercial air travel. It is that fundamental belief that leads to both the 100ml limit on (most) liquids and the use of highly invasive screenings (whether AIT or "enhanced" pat-downs).

So, TSA's use of enhanced patdowns on children is completely consistent with its approach to securing commercial air travel. Whether that approach is appropriate is another question entirely.

Caradoc Apr 14, 2011 1:08 pm


Originally Posted by jkhuggins (Post 16218725)
Clearly, TSA believes that extremely small quantitites of substances present a clear and present danger to commercial air travel. It is that fundamental belief that leads to both the 100ml limit on (most) liquids and the use of highly invasive screenings (whether AIT or "enhanced" pat-downs).

I'm not certain that's the case.

Claiming that small quantities of substances present a threat seems to be a really good way to claim the authority to perform searches for those small quantities, further increasing the granularity of the "administrative search."

They don't have to believe it. They just have to claim it, and the sheeple follow along - including the sheeple in the blue shirts who're doing the actual dirty work.

jkhuggins Apr 14, 2011 2:28 pm


Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 16218851)
They don't have to believe it. They just have to claim it, and the sheeple follow along - including the sheeple in the blue shirts who're doing the actual dirty work.

I tend to think this is a case where Hanlon's Razor applies ... but your mileage may vary. :)

Caradoc Apr 14, 2011 2:33 pm


Originally Posted by jkhuggins (Post 16219361)
I tend to think this is a case where Hanlon's Razor applies ... but your mileage may vary. :)

I typically apply Hanlon's Razor when there's no evidence of evil.

In this case, enough stupidium to qualify the TSA's actions for Hanlon's Razor would have collapsed into a black hole already.

patom Apr 14, 2011 2:44 pm

Within TSA there is so much malice and stupidity there is no need to attempt to apply logic. The entire organization defies logic and sensible security process.

Wally Bird Apr 14, 2011 2:54 pm


Originally Posted by unLogical (Post 16216915)
I am just saying that it could happen. Nothing more.

Your next flight could be hit by a meteorite or collide with a piece of falling space junk. Among other things far more likely than a 6 year old carrying sheet explosive.

Let's try to keep some perspective, shall we ?

unLogical Apr 14, 2011 6:03 pm


Originally Posted by Wally Bird (Post 16219520)
Your next flight could be hit by a meteorite or collide with a piece of falling space junk. Among other things far more likely than a 6 year old carrying sheet explosive.

Let's try to keep some perspective, shall we ?

Did I ever say it was likely? The purpose of what I said was to say that a child could carry enough explosives to do actual damage. Nothing more than that.

TSORon Apr 14, 2011 6:39 pm


Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 16215230)
...and "sheet explosive attacks" on US-originated flights have been attempted... how many times? Let's see... nothing into nothing... carry the nothing... divide by nothing..

And until 9/11 no terrorist group had ever used a commercial aircraft as a WMD. And until Orville and Wilbur Wright took off at Kitty Hawk no one had ever flown a powered aircraft before. And until Yuri Alekseyevich Gagarin got fired into space aboard Vostok 1 on 11 April 1961 no one had ever orbited the earth before.

I trust I have made my point.


Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 16215230)
Probably because while a square foot of sheet explosive might be able to "do a lot of damage," it's still unlikely to take the plane down. Might have a couple of passengers and a flight attendant or two pass out when they don't get their masks on fast enough, though.

It's simply not a credible threat.

Wrong. A square foot of C4 based sheet explosive could weigh as much as a pound, and when placed in near-direct contact with the interior of the aircraft pressure hull It is more than enough to open a very large hole in an aircraft. The Bojinka plot used far less than a pound of explosive (home-made and therefore far less explosive) and opened a hole in Philippine Airlines Flight 434 large enough to pass a full sized human through to the cargo compartment, and it was not in contact with the exterior wall of the aircraft.


Originally Posted by unLogical (Post 16216547)
I said that kids could hide enough material to pose a threat, I did not say they were a threat.

Kids are not usually terrorists (some parents might at times disagree). But children are going to carry what they are told to carry when at an airport. They would not have packed the bag, an adult would have. And adults have been known to be terrorists.

Mabuk dan gila Apr 14, 2011 6:46 pm

The number one reason terrorists won't use children to carry explosives through a checkpoint, is because it would be so much easier for them to just pack the explosives in condoms and swallow them along with a small detonator. They could then walk strait through the strip search scanner unmolested while the TSA was distracted feeling up some 6 year old.


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