How long before TSA goes back to "normal"
 

Those of us who were flying on Nov23rd realize of course that TSA turned off many of the nudo-o-scopes and reduced the number of genital gropings and crotch grabs, and apparently sent something out to the entire staff because the smurfs were VERY FRIENDLY also.

I mentioned to a friend, and he agreed, that if the checkpoint experience were like this all the time, as it should be, then we both would consider returning to commercial flying on a regular basis. He gave up on flying 2years ago because of TSA.

So my question is, how long before TSA goes back to their old habits as they were doing before Nov23rd?, more genital gropings, the smurfs being their old selves, etc?

My answer is, if they have not yet, they will very soon, probably within the next few days:td::mad:

I wish there was a poll I could start on this.

My guess is Dec 1. All the once a year travelers should be home by then.

If that long.

Define "normal" ;)

That would be the 'enhanced' normal.

The once a year travelers are the majority, I believe, who are in the "anything for security" crowd:rolleyes:.

Almost every frequent flyer I have either spoken with in our office and who I came in contact with over the last few weeks have all said they intend to cut back on their flying and using other methods to get their meetings accomplished. Several agreed if it is less than a 5hour drive each way, they will drive. All of this since TSA started with the enhanced patdowns, aka genital gropings.

Many were opposed to the the nudo-o-scopes, but almost everyone without exception was irate, blood boiling mad over the enhanced pat downs:mad::mad:

If enough of the frequent travelers paying the higher fares start cutting back on their flying it will bite the airlines in the a** and then maybe the airline industry will finally get a pair and stand up to TSA.

If I were a betting person, I would say within a week and it will go back to the same scanning and groping. I think during Christmas holiday they will do the same as this Thanksgving, with shut off machines and no invasive patdowns. If they do repeat the Thanksgiving scenario I will be even more sure that this whole security thing is an enormous ruse. It makes it look like there are no threats during holiday but only non-holidays. Do they think we are all morons??

I will go and check out DEN on Sunday. I will post my observations and compare them to my observations on NOOD. I suspect that the TSA will go back to their normal selves sometime after Monday. As luck would have it, I will be flying Tuesday so will be going through 1 of the 3 checkpoints. I will compare that experience with Wed and Sunday's observations.

I'm headed through a few places next week, including the infamous DEN. We'll see how it goes.

Only as long as it takes for all the newspapers to report few opt-outs.

Gotta love all these phony assurances that TSA didn't make any changes. More lies and distortions by the media and a disgruntled small minority of pax, I guess.

Going through the checkpoint at ORD yesterday. I dump everything in bins and on the belt and head for the WTMD. Young male TSO asks if my pockets are empty. I say 'yes' and he tells me to 'step this way' (NoS). I say "I'll have to opt out". He looks at a fellow TSO standing next to the WTMD. The second TSO shrugs. The first TSO says (says, not barks), 'OK, go on' and points to the WTMD.

That was it. No grope.

Interestingly enough, it was very slow. Four male pax ahead of me, all of whom went through the WTMD (no one in NoS during that time). I (middle-aged woman) got selected for NoS. More randomness, I guess.

I don't think it's just that the male TSOs don't like doing the grope (except maybe on kids) because they are afraid they'll get clobbered sooner or later, so the elderly and women are more likely to get randomly selected.

I think it's also that more male TSOs dislike groping other men and are willing to balk at doing so. I don't think the women like doing it either, but I suspect they aren't quite as grossed out about it.

Certainly conversations about this with friends/family lead me to think this is so. The guys uniformly react with horror at the idea of having to touch another guy's 'junk' or rear. The women don't relish it either, but there doesn't seem to be a feminine equivalent of homophobia.

Being relatively new to FT and the frequent flier crowd -- were there as many horror stories about TSA power trips (the woman with the breast milk comes to mind first) happening last year and before this mess? Have these abuses been going on all of this time and I just wasn't aware because I wasn't tapped in or seeing it on the news?

I guess as a noob I'm trying to figure out what the line between "normal" and "not normal" is. Is "normal" pre-shampoo and pre-shoes? Were there power trip horror stories then too?

I noticed that when I went through the checkpoint on Wednesday. The TSA were trying very hard to be friendly. In fact, there was one TSO standing next to the line saying hello to the travelers. At the time, it confused me, but now I realize why they did that. In addition, there was another TSO lecturing the passengers waiting for the TDC that the news reports about the TSA have been "erroneous" and that there is nothing to worry about; going through the AIT machines would be faster and easier. The TSA was on their best behavior trying to make it seem like it was no big deal to the once-a-year travelers.

Love Security Theater. Now Al Qaeda knows what times to send its couriers through.

There were reports that the NoS would be turned off at DFW on Wednesday. I was changing planes at that airport then and can say that they were not.

Here you go:

I was just reading that, no surprise, TSA cannot keep up this act forever. In another post of mine, I relayed that I was telling a buddy of mine how friendly the smurfs were and how smoothly the checkpoint experience was (no nudo-o-scopes) on Weds the 23rd.

He replied by saying this, in part "there are all kinds of addicts, just like someone being addicted to alcohol or someone being addicted to gambling, TSA is addicted to itself and the power to abuse the public and now it seems to be addicted to groping men's ****, ***** and ********* and like any addict they find changing on a long term basis almost impossible"

(Please note that I heavily edited my friends response, the first time I posted it in another thread it was "edited" by one of the moderators as being "tasteless", so send me a pm and I would be glad to tell you what my friend said UNEDITED and UNCENSORED)

Yep, TSA, just like most addicts will very soon return to its old ways:td::mad:

The TSA agents at PHL were back to normal yesterday. That being rude and condescending to air travelers. The City of Brotherly Love? :confused:

Some suggestions for observers
 

It's a great question and I am looking forward to hearing what people see on Sunday.

There's some suggestions for observers in http://iwilloptout.org/2010/11/26/su...y-of-the-year/

jon

My wife has a theory on this: she suggests that, to prove they are not racially profiling, the TSA dudes want to balance the young, possibly arab looking guys with an at least equal number of older, middle aged women. And, of course, to make sure they don't get caught short when someone they know they really ought to search carefully comes by, they want to keep somewhat ahead. And that is why, in this theoretical construct, middle aged women seem to get searched. As a late middle aged guy, I am in the middle and that is good. For me only. I also can look really cross if I decide to. And, believe it or not, that seems to help.

I hope they return to normal tomorrow - then the once a years will actually learn.

There are already multiple reports on here that indicated that TSA went back to the status quo as early as Thanksgiving Day.

well think about it, any news station worth its own, had a crew at its local air port... all the major networks were there... so of course the TSA is going to behave. But now that no one is looking too closely at them, and all the news crews left, now the public is REALLY gonna get for punishment for making them have to be 'nice'

Lets hope, and then the once a year travelers will start getting a taste of what frequent flyers have been getting all along.

I agree. lets hope all airports will running back to normal routine again. Elimination all body scanners/MMW immediately.

I think you have the wrong end of the stick. It doesn't take long to become accustomed to performing acts that are not societal norms. Say, high school wrestling. It's certainly not homophobia. I don't think screeners have a universal coping mechanism for being required by their jobs to violate others personal space. I'd be interested in hearing how they are coping with the stress.

ypu bring up a valid point. Going TSA could be really ugly especially since reports I have seen says they go thruogh zero security.

There have been lots of stories about TSA abuses throughout the agency's history. I wonder if some of the media outlets are going back through old tips and stories that they originally dismissed now that this is a hot topic. It seems that even on this board, many of the anecdotes being posted were actually discussed a year or two ago, but they are re-surfacing as a large crowd of people unfamiliar with the issues hear the stories for the first time.

I think what you are seeing now is a LOT of people coming forward with stories of abuses from the past few years. People who thought, "Oh it was just me" or "It was just one jerk screener" or "I'll be forbidden from flying if I complain" are now realizing that the problem is pervasive and is getting worse.

For the vast majority of Americans who fly less than once a year, travel is stressful and confusing. A bad experience at the TSA checkpoint is equivalent inconvenience to the flight being delayed or canceled due to weather or the display listing the wrong gate so you have to run a mile through a crowded terminal. If you fly on a regular basis, it is easier to differentiate between "stuff happens" and "a pervasive pattern of abuses and absurdities". I think that since FT is a board for frequent fliers, we are more alert to anomalies and abuses of the system, so searching back through historical threads in this forum will yield a lot of information.

But to answer your question, "what is normal?", every time an attack has been attempted, TSA responds with increased 'security' measures. Shoes and liquids were inconvenient, but I think that three things in the recent past have really upped the stakes:
1) The court gave some sanction to TSA's 'administrative' searches in US v. Aukai, and TSA has interpreted this as a blank check to ignore the Fourth Amendment.
2) The Christmas/underwear bomber gave TSA/DHS a black eye - there were more red flags on that guy than a used car lot, but he slipped through TSA's 'layered security'.
3) The Obama administration is afraid of looking 'soft on terror', so they are overcorrecting - ignoring/facilitating the increased encroachment on civil liberties. (I'm not 100% sure on this one, Obama also seems to have a fundamental belief that government should reduce risk for its citizens so that may have a role here.) In any case, he appointed Janet Napolitano, and I think most people on the TS&S forum would say the TSA has become noticeably worse during her tenure.

ETA: I think that TSA will moderate their current 'most offensive' behaviors until some of the political dust settles. For example, I opted out today, and received a very polite and professional patdown, back of the hands used around breasts, the groin check stopped when her hand brushed the top of my inseam - definitely no contact or pressure on my genitals. They were accommodating about letting me watch my stuff; they had me waiting outside the WTMD while they located a female TSO, and I asked if I could walk through to keep an eye on my stuff and they let me.

The only hassle was when a partially toothless TSO informed me that I shouldn't have been allowed to go through until they found a female agent, and "if they had known I was opting out, they wouldn't have let me put my stuff through the x-ray". It seems like there is always one TSO who feels compelled to get a few digs in while everyone else tries to be polite and professional. But I also think the toothless guy was correct: that TSA is trying desperately to avoid the 'double opt-out' scenario by describing the patdown thoroughly and obtaining 'consent' before you enter screening.

Why wouldn't they drive even with the old TSA procedures?

Let's figure a 30 minute drive to get to the airport (I think that is far below what most people need).

Minimum, 15 minutes from the time they park their cars until they get to the TSA line.

Let's say another 15 minutes to get to the screening, be checked, and get dressed again.

One hour has already gone by. They now need, say, 10 minutes to get to the gate and, if they arrive just as boarding begins, 30 minutes sitting on the ground until the plane is ready to back out. It has now taken them 1 hour, 40minutes.

Let's give it another 10 minutes on the tarmac until they are cleared for take off. Finally, after 1 hour and 50 minutes they are in the air.

A five hour drive would be about 250 miles, so this is a short flight -- say, 40 minutes. Let's give it another 10 minutes from landing, through taxiing, until the doors open. 2 hrs and 40 minutes are gone.

They do not have any checked luggage, so they have no wait for it, but it will probably take them 10 minutes to walk from the gate to the the front of the terminal. 2 hrs and 50 minutes.

They have no car, so they are probably going to rent one. We'll put it at 10 minutes until the shuttle bus arrives, another 10 minutes to get to the car rental, and a third 10 minutes to get the car, check it to make certain there are no problems, and to drive away with it. 3 hrs and 20 minutes.

Again, throw in a 30 minute drive from the airport to their destination. They have now gotten to 3 hrs and 50 minutes, door-to-door.

I think that it's fair to say that these times are minimal and it will probably take longer, but let's go with them.

Your co-workers have saved a total of 1 hour and 10 minutes. For this, they have severely restricted themselves as to what they can take with them (remember, checked baggage would have extended the time and many things can not be put in hand luggage).

Moreover, they have subjected themselves to all of the uncertainties of air travel. Will the plane they are planning to take arrive at their airport in time or it will it be delayed by weather at its departure airport? Will there be a mechanical issue which will force a delay? If it is such a short flight, they will probably be stuck in a Barbie jet -- do they like that idea?

All that for a savings of 70 minutes? Sorry, but I would take a car anytime for that distance.

I disagree with your numbers. For a short trip like DFW-HOU or DFW-CRP, I find it takes 2 - 2.5 hours for me to get from my home, fly, and be en route (via taxi or car rental) to my destination.

But let's assume your numbers are correct. I do live only 15 minutes from DFW airport. :D The extra 70 minutes you save by flying is actually doubled for the round trip, so it becomes nearly 2.5 hours of extra productive time in the middle of your workday.

I can fly DFW-IAH round trip easily in a single day, and have a nice long meeting in the middle. Leave the house at 7:30 for a 9:00 am flight, meet from 11 am to 4 pm, home by 6 or 7 pm. Less than a 12-hour day, and that assumes a 5-hour meeting. Plus it's easier to sit on a plane for an hour or so, where I can sleep, eat, or work, rather than concentrating on driving for 4 hours.

If I drove, I would leave the house at 7:30, hit Dallas traffic, drive 4 hours, hit Houston lunch traffic, two hour meeting, drive 4 hours and probably hit Dallas traffic again. I consider the uncertainty of driving in traffic to be equivalent to the uncertainty of airport delays.

In either case, I shouldn't have to include the possibility of a government agent groping me or seeing me naked as part of my calculus. ;)

You could try NOT leaving at rush hour? When I went to Seattle in 2009, I failed to think about rush hour and bought a ticket landing between 2 and 3pm. By the time I got my luggage and my rental and headed out, I hit the gridlock going south out of Seattle. BAD planning on my part. I think I'll have those things in mind on future trips.

I have a 500 mile rule, if it is less than 500 miles, I drive. Over 500, I fly. There are exceptions, of course, but here is the math for 500 miles.

I live rural, near an interstate highway. So if where I am going is 500 miles, I am looking at 8-10 hours allowing for stops for fuel, food and just to walk around.

I live 1.5 hours from the nearest airport. I allow 1.5 hours for clearing parking, check-in and security. It is a smaller regional airport, so this is adequate. New math has me adding 30 minutes for the new procedures, but this may not be necessary long term. Total so far: 3.5 hours.

500 mile flight: 1.5 hours gate to gate. 5 hours total.

Wait for luggage (I have to check a bag) plus get rental car, plus get on road. 1 hour usually unless it is an exception airport. 6 hours now.

My final destination is generally less than one hour to the airport, so call it 1 hour with traffic. Total 7 hours. I take into account the risk of lost luggage, airport delays, and this turns into roughly the same, on the outbound, but it slightly favors flying.

The return is where the math works in my favor. If I can coordinate my work being done just as I need to go to the airport, then then return math works exactly like the outbound math. But, we all know this does not happen. Many of us schedule the first flight out of the morning after the work is over. If I am driving, as soon as the job is done I start home. It may be 12 hours before the first flight leaves, and I may have to pay a significant premium to be on it. It may be sold out.

So the lost time occurs mostly on the return. The beauty in driving is starting home at the earliest possible time.

It might also be less expensive on your employer to drive, but I do not find the difference to be hugely significant at current mileage reimbursement rates, but it can be.

There are two down sides, the loss of productivity while driving. I do get some work done while at the hotel and airport. And weather. It is much easier to fly over winter storms than through them.

Because of the new potential for added delay, I am currently considering a 600 mile rule, but the extra two hours on the road may be just a bit too exhausting. I may need a better car. :)

I guess each individual has their own personal threshold and for many of the people in our office the latest TSA atrocities with the enhanced patdowns pushed them over the edge where before they were willing, very reluctantly, but willing to put up with TSA's bull**it.

The 5 hour figure is one I threw out. One of our people had a meeting recently in NewOrleans, they elected to drive, have their meeting, stayed overnight and drove back the next day.

Several have a meeting coming up in Chicago next week, much longer than a 5hour drive, and already most have said they will drive. I havent mapped it out, but I am guessing its around 16 hours each way, all to avoid the TSA hassles and perverts.

This meeting has been in the works for a while, originally flying was the way everyone was going to go, but again it seems the enhanced pat downs pushed many people over the edge that they were very close to already.

I reached my own personal theshold about a year and a half ago with a TSO I had an encounter with in CLE.

It helps when the ceo of the company who has an intense scathing opinion of TSA, comes out and says, "if you want to drive or find other means of accomplishing the goals of your meeting, and not have to put up with TSA and all its #&%*ing, bull**it procedures or to avoid getting your crotch massaged by a mall cop reject, then please go right ahead, if it is so far that driving is not a realistic option or if you just do not want to put up with all of this, even if it means we loose business or a contract, I am not going to require someone put up with that kind of indignity when I refuse to do so myself".

Now that is a great boss to have^:)

CMH was definitely back to normal this morning. 45-minute line to get through security at 6:30 a.m., complete with barkers and NoSs (Terminal C, Delta/AirTran). Woo hoo. Couldn't see the check-in area at BOS from the silver line bus, though.

I agree that the only way to stop this madness is for the business travelers to slow down their flying so the airlines feel the financial impact.

From a couple of news reports I heard from LGA today, it would seem that the NoS is not being used. Also heard that some people were passing out "opt out" flyers!

NOOD was a one-day wonder, effectively defused by a TSA sweetness campaign.

It would make a much greater impact if January business travel were off by 20 or 30 percent and flight load factors got knocked down commensurately. Nothing says policy change like an empty airport after the holidays. FFers would simply have to get through a few weeks earning no miles or status, and resisting the inevitable bonus promotions the airlines would lay on to get you to abandon your principles.

So, here it is Sunday. The locall station says that 172,000 will be flying from/thru DEN. Compared to Wednesday, today was just as easy to fly from DEN. I observed for approx 40 mins of both checkpoints in the main hall (south and Colorado Flag checkpoints). Here are a couple of those observations:
- 5 TDCs checking IDs at both checkpoints
- 9 lanes open for screening at the Southside point
- 8 lanes open for screening at the Colorado Flag point
- 1 of 4 NOS machines being used (Southside point)
- each checkpoint staffed with 45-50 TSA
- only watched 3 patdowns (all occured on the southside point); 2 older gentlemen and 1 eldery women. The women being patted down had the screener go inside the waistband but minimally
- One lady had water left in her water bottle; screener took the bottle and dumped the contents out and handed it back
- As compared to Wednesday, there were fewer screeners helping passengers with their bin contents
- Those that went through the NoS were given an additional patdown of pockets after coming out of the machine (assuming to resolve any anomolies)
- Teenage girl carried through what looked to be jam; screener swabbed it but handed it back; no additional patdown given.
I am still flying out on Tuesday so will get to provide some additional observations. With all that said, I had an interesting interactions with Denver finest. I will report that under the thread titled "That's Up to the FBI" coming soon.

You would think that line TSOs (the 'bad' ones) and/or their management would realize that if they make an effort to be civil, it can be a much better experience for everyone.

It's easy to have a stalemate: pax say TSOs should ease up, they are causing the headaches, TSOs say it's all the fault of pax. But you can communicate (to some extent) with nearly all TSOs at one time - can't do that with pax.

Wish I believed it was going to last...