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Flyer at SAN says no to grope, escorted from checkpoint by LEO, threatened with suit

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Flyer at SAN says no to grope, escorted from checkpoint by LEO, threatened with suit

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Old Nov 14, 2010, 8:24 am
  #61  
 
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Originally Posted by tanja
I think it is really weak from the TSO just to say" Read all our rules on our website".

A lot of people still dont have a computer. And even less know how to look things up. Or even know that they are supposed to look things up.

There is no law that says that passengers even have to get more info or even info from internet.

All they need really to know is on the tickets and other paperwork that comes with the purchase .

And it doesnt say any where on the ticket that you give up your rights to your body . And that you now have to let TSO touch you. That is just crap.
I agree, the government can't just assume you read their web sites. If you quote something from it that a TSO doesn't agree with, he'll just tell you that the web site is wrong...
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 8:30 am
  #62  
 
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Originally Posted by IslandBased
I agree, the government can't just assume you read their web sites. If you quote something from it that a TSO doesn't agree with, he'll just tell you that the web site is wrong...
The best thing is to actually print out their web pages. And to give it to people who we know dont have a computer and/or understand them.
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 9:26 am
  #63  
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He even told the guard, "You touch my junk and I'm going to have you arrested."
Just think how famous and immortal he could have become if he had recorded "Don't grope me, Bro!"

My fav from the newspaper comments: "Nothing starts my vacation like a good massage of my genitals by a rent-a-cop with a GED."
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 9:38 am
  #64  
 
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Originally Posted by jco613
I just want to comment on the TSO's comment "You gave up your rights when you bought your ticket".

UM when I buy a ticket, I do not se anything in any airlines CoC that states "Once you purchase your ticket, you hereby give up all of your rights protected by the Constitution of the United States of America or any other documents."

So, no, you do not give up your rights when you buy your ticket, the Constitution protects us from ourselves, others, AND THE GOVERNMENT!


Ah, I feel better now!
I want a t-shirt:

FRONT: I didn't give up my Constitutional rights.......

BACK: .....TSA stole them!!!!!!!
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 9:48 am
  #65  
 
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A message from Nappy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOlZdOqsh4Q

Very sad, but we all know it's true....
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 10:05 am
  #66  
 
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Highly interesting post from "obsidian468" at: www.reddit.com about this incident.

First off, I want to state that I am a contractor for the security division at a major international airport. I do NOT work for TSA. I am the systems administrator for the access control and CCTV systems at the airport I work at - the systems that actually keep the airport secure, yet are largely invisible to the general public. I also have not read the prior 1600+ comments, as that would take me all night - time that I don't have available to spend. I do see security procedure from an inside perspective, including TSA procedure, due to the fact that I am often involved in airport security meetings and briefings.

All the above said, I wish to present another perspective on this. I have largely kept quiet on my feelings about this (though recently came out strongly against the new TSA measures on a thread in /r/libertarian - some of you might remember me from there).

Unfortunately, this may get lost in all of the other replies to this thread.

Procedurally, the TSA screening agents acted just as they have been instructed in this matter. They are largely intelligent enough to perform their duties, but not intelligent enough to question the legality of their procedures. Quoting laws, or even the Constitution, to them won't help your case. They just do as they are trained to do. Is this a sad commentary on the state of "security" in America? Yes. Is this untrue? No.

My biggest complaint with the video is when the TSA screener (I think it was a TSA screener, as it was before it was obvious there was a police officer on site) during the first video (or early in the second video) mentioned that they were Federal law enforcement. TSA is NOT Federal Law Enforcement in any regard. With the exception of a select few (that are often crossovers with Customs, FBI or Federal Air Marshals) NO TSA officer is permitted to carry a firearm or act in a law enforcement capacity. Those shiny badges they have are no more significant than the ones kids used to pull out of cereal boxes.

What was presented in the blog and videos is exactly what will happen if you opt out of both the strip-search scanner and the sexual assault pat down at an airport. It's the procedure implemented by the TSA and allowed by airports, who just roll over, as much of their operating funds come from the feds contingent on compliance with these procedures.

The police officer called in the incident was likely very happy to just let the guy leave (airport duty officers have one of the most cushy jobs on Earth, as the only things they have to deal with [with a few exceptions] are unhappy [sometimes belligerent] passengers, speeding and parking violations, and the occasional suspicious person), until the TSA inspector/encorcement official stepped in. Even the local airport law enforcement is trained to comply with TSA requests (even though the local cops have more authority) - it all comes back to where the money comes from.

What can you do to ensure this doesn't happen to you? You have three choices. Submit to the strip-search scanner, submit to the sexual assault pat-down, or refuse to fly. Any act of protest will be seen as a threat to security by TSA, and you'll be submitted to the same things as in the original post.

What is wrong with this? Everything. Even beyond the obvious violation of the 4th Amendment, the TSA has been basically granted carte blanche ability to implement any new screening technique they wish, completely without public or congressional review. They have been allowed to make themselves above the law, and not liable for any violations of law within the regulations they set forth. (That said, they often commit many other violations of law [theft, molestation not outlined in their regs, molestation outlined in their regs, and other such things], in which I tend to be instrumental in proscecuting, as I have control over the CCTV systems, which often convict them).

You should always carry a pocket copy of the Constitution with you (available on Amazon.com). At least, in that case, if you've presented it and quoted it, it'll make for good evidence in a trial that goes to the local Federal Court, or if you're lucky enough, the Supreme Court, which could rule this whole humiliation unconstitutional and illegal.

Bottom line is that the TSA has gotten out of hand. Congress is either ignorant of that fact or refuses to do anything to change it. It is now up to us as citizens to stand against it. If that means not flying, then so be it. Once the airlines feel the hurt, then they'll start to side with the citizens. Some already have (well, pilot unions, at least), and the Feds should soon start to feel the pressure.

TL;DR: Insight from an insider - read the post if you're really interested.
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 10:21 am
  #67  
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Originally Posted by tanja
I think it is really weak from the TSO just to say" Read all our rules on our website".
This is kind of Kafkaesque in itself as plenty of TSOs have disavowed the rules on the website, or insisted they are no longer operative. The website is pointless if TSOs are free to ignore those rules or invent new ones in the name of "strategic inconsistency," or whatever they call it.

A government agency cannot compel an individual to do anything it thinks up, with harsh sanctions for refusal.
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 10:27 am
  #68  
 
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You can buy pocket-sized copies of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence at the Cato Institute website; $4.95 each, with bulk purchase discounts:

http://www.cato.org/constitution/purchase.html
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 10:37 am
  #69  
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Originally Posted by BearX220
Originally Posted by tanja
I think it is really weak from the TSO just to say" Read all our rules on our website".
This is kind of Kafkaesque in itself as plenty of TSOs have disavowed the rules on the website, or insisted they are no longer operative. The website is pointless if TSOs are free to ignore those rules or invent new ones in the name of "strategic inconsistency," or whatever they call it.

A government agency cannot compel an individual to do anything it thinks up, with harsh sanctions for refusal.
Sure it can.
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 10:42 am
  #70  
 
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Originally Posted by lkkinetic
You can buy pocket-sized copies of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence at the Cato Institute website; $4.95 each, with bulk purchase discounts:

http://www.cato.org/constitution/purchase.html
If you have a smart phone, you can download them for free from Kindle, Project Gutenberg, and many other sites.
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 11:01 am
  #71  
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Drudge has this incident llisted now.

TSA is surely winning the hearts and minds of the public!
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 11:35 am
  #72  
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Originally Posted by Boggie Dog
Drudge has this incident llisted now.

TSA is surely winning the hearts and minds of the public!
Yes, that program certainly was a great success the last time it was tried.
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 12:12 pm
  #73  
 
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I am (not really) surprised that the TSA cannot change its policy...all they have to do is say the pat-down is mandatory if you choose to not go through WBI but have a "secret" rule that if you do not feel comfortable with someone touching your genitalia, they can run the wand over it. Problem solved, people happy, public still safe.
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 12:39 pm
  #74  
 
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I just want to comment on the TSO's comment "You gave up your rights when you bought your ticket".

UM when I buy a ticket, I do not se anything in any airlines CoC that states "Once you purchase your ticket, you hereby give up all of your rights protected by the Constitution of the United States of America or any other documents."
You know, that's a really, really good point. If our fourth amendment rights are destroyed when we buy an airline ticket, shouldn't that be made into a little box we have to check when we buy our online airline tickets, right beside the little box with the "terms of use agreement"?

Because I just bought a ticket and I don't remember seeing anything about surrendering my fourth amendment rights.

Just sayin...

Oh, and I've never seen any signs that say you CAN'T record. Seems like a person should be able to record anything in a public area, and I'm pretty sure this sort of thing has been challenged recently in regards to recording police officers in public areas
.

When I was being prepped for my opt-out induced "pat down" I had to remove LINT from my pockets. Seriously. The TSA critter screeched repeatedly, "M'am, remove everything from your pockets! Is everything out of your pockets? Remove EVERYTHING from your pockets. Have you removed everything from your pockets?"

How in the world are you going to record *anything* with this as the preface to a pat down? My point is, I think this is intentional. They don't need to put up signs restricting recording because they make it impossible by their very actions.

I have a small digital recorder that I intend to take with me next time I fly, but I haven't figured out how to keep it on my body.

Rose

Last edited by Kiwi Flyer; Nov 14, 2010 at 8:54 pm Reason: merge consecutive posts
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Old Nov 14, 2010, 1:14 pm
  #75  
LLM
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Originally Posted by RosemaryT
When I was being prepped for my opt-out induced "pat down" I had to remove LINT from my pockets. Seriously. The TSA critter screeched repeatedly, "M'am, remove everything from your pockets! Is everything out of your pockets? Remove EVERYTHING from your pockets. Have you removed everything from your pockets?"
Yep, same here, in my case it was a tissue stuck in a deep corner of my jeans pocket.
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