Global_Hi_Flyer

The government has made America into anything BUT a free country.

LessO2

Phil,

What else is there to discuss? 762 posts in the original thread about your experience in Albuquerque, and this thread is nearing 50. And I'm sure we have not even come close to the light at the end of the tunnel, given your court date is not for three more months.

In my opinion, the mods have extended quite a bit of flexibility in this thread and the other one. Like the point of this post, you will likely disagree but I feel it has just gotten out of hand.

I completely respect your adamant feelings about the TSA's comical ID policy. But it has gotten down to putting every single word people type about this under a microscope. If it's done within the TOS, that is your right to do so.

However, the perception comes over in a different way.

It has gotten to the point where it feels uncomfortable to simply even read, let alone reply to a post that's on this topic. With one exception, every post you have replied to is with a question that challenges the person. I'm all for follow-up questions, but it just does not come over in a positive way, it comes over as confrontational. It's one thing to read that, but it's another to be the recipient of it, and I think it's a total turnoff for both readers and contributors alike.

It seems like you have a mission to single-handedly answer anyone's question about ID issues with the TSA. If you want to carry that torch, I would suggest taking the emotion out of your feedback. That is what SATTSO referred to very early in this thread.

I know this will not change your feeling to how you feel about the TSA's ID thing, and that's not my goal. My point is more from a FT angle (while I do not speak for anyone at FT, purely my own feelings). If you want to blow off my post or even RBP it, that's fine with me. I just wanted you to know what one of your fellow FlyerTalkers feels about what this has evolved into.

SATTSO

If that were really true, if you really believed it, you would not have post that here - unless you actually wanted this government to come get you while you slept. Because we both know that's what actually happens in countries where there is no freedom.

On the other hand, in a country where people are free, they can post their disdain for said government, and sleep with out fear of being "collected".

I wonder how you will really sleep tonight?

Global_Hi_Flyer

Shall we talk about what happened to Christopher Elliott?

FlyingHoustonian

Yes, but to be fair, he is a giant f-ing douche bag.

Ciao,
FH

SATTSO

Sure, if you want to. He didn't just post his opinion, now did he? Oh yeah, we already know the answer to that. No, he post some SSI information, and was paid a visit by some DHS criminal investigators. And since then he vanished, right?

Is that really the best example you can use?

Cholula

A post here specifically discussing moderation was deleted. That is strictly against the TOS.

If you have any questions on moderation issues, PM the moderators rather than bringing it up in public.


___________________________________

Cholula
TS/S Co-Moderator

PhoenixRev

The notion that unless the government is harvesting citizens in the middle of the night liberty is alive and well is absurd.

SATTSO

You are correct, it is absurd. There are many ways to deprive liberty, and I simply named a few - and by no means did I write what you claim: that "unless" the government does this or that we are free.

Now let's be honest, what else is absurd that is post on this site - hmmm comparing the current USA to Nazi Germany, clearly absure. Yet people here eat it up. And there are other outlandish claim that most here seem to embrace.

But let's talk the truth, what is also absurd is when someone says if they don't have one particular freedom, then there is no freedom. We can all find things in which we believe people and their actions should be limited; I suspect this is true even with you.

The truth is we are more free in this country than ever before. ALL peoples can protest what they want, and do so almost entirely how they want. It was not so just a handful of decades ago. Everyone can vote - not true a few decades ago. Police departments have been limited in what they can and can not do over the decades (all LEOs for that matter). The truth is a casual study of the political implications of constitutional law will indicate we are more "free" than ever before.

No there are many ways to deprive people of their liberty, and to suggest this country is not as free, is itself absurd.

Wimpie

A dissenting opinion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWOW1OKzdNA

Boggie Dog

One form of deprivation of liberty would be government not allowing a person to fly on a commercial airplane just because they didn't want to display their ID to a government player. Yet that is exactly what has been discussed in this thread. That is apparently what TSA is doing.

TSA harms America and its citizens.

PhoenixRev

Question 1: How does having to produce ID to get through security to board a plane make us as free or more free than we were on 9/10/01?

Question 2: How did holding a U.S. citizen in custody without indictment, charges, or a habeus corpus hearing makes us as free or more free than we were on 9/10/01?

Question 3: How did the government wiretapping U.S. citizens without a warrant make us as free or more free than we were on 9/10/01?

SATTSO

I didn't say any of those make us more free. But you know that. And you will always be able to point to specific events that prove the exception to the rule - but it's a fact, and i did nit originate the opinion - why it's taught in most if not all law schools. Since the founding of this country we have seen a general - and I do mean general - expansion of civil liberties even until this time. I doubt that many here will agree, but that is besides the point. It is still a simple fact that more Americans today enjoy an expansion of civil liberties than ever before.

Boggie Dog

I don't think you can demonstrate any expansion of liberties since 9/11. In fact many laws restricting civil liberties have been enacted that restrict freedoms.

Patriot Act, FINCEN, OFAC, DHS, TSA and many others.

SATTSO

You sure about that?

But I think your thinking in narrow, national security terms. What about so-called gay rights? Those have certainly expanded...however, in keeping with the pulse of this thread, it is important that so far the government has LOST 37 out of 53 cases regarding the Guantanamo detainees. Everyones favorite organization here, the ACLU, has stated this as a major victory in the expansion of liberties/rights.

I can post more, if you wish...?

(as a side note, as American history has demonstrated, it is times like these that result in the expansion of civil liberties, and for good reason: our courts do not rule on events that have not happened yet. Any time of great distress in American history, our courts become flooded with cases and generally rule in favor to expand individual civil liberties. This is not my opinion, it's fact)