PTravel

It doesn't take long for ionizing radiation to cause cell damage -- in fact, it takes a lot less time than it takes you walk through the back-scanner. I don't know about you, but I've had melanoma. I'm not going near an uncalibrated, unmaintained source of ionizing radiation that can be turned on by someone in a remote room who is not a licensed x-ray technician. YMMV.

KenTarmac

Yes. YMMV.

WillCAD

My concern about walking through a MMW BSX (EDITED TO ADD: That was a typo; I meant to type BSX but typed MMW instead) machine is not whether or not it's "turned on", but whether the machine is leaking deadly radiation due to poor maintenance, damage from improper operation, damage from the thousands of people who have passed through and around it, or even from a manufacturer's defect which was never detected because the machine has never been properly calibrated or tested.

My dentist takes better care of his ionizing radiation sources than TSA does, takes far more precautions when using them, and is under far more strict governmental oversight to be sure that he abides by those conditions.

Ysitincoach

Having witnessed TSO clerks jotting down calibration readings from various equipment on a form, in pencil, tells me everything I need to know about what they do with the results.

KenTarmac

You and PTravel need to do your homework. I'm serious. Don't take my word for it. Do your own research.

MMW does not produce ionizing radiation and the machines do not contain ionizing isotopes that could "leak" radiation. This and the way MMW produces a 3D image is why you're seeing MMW becoming the dominant means of scanning. You're more likely to catch a stray zoomie by walking close to the carry on x-ray machine than you are walking THROUGH the MMW scanner. Think about that the next time you refuse to walk through a de-energized MMW machine.

Now, Backscatter X-ray on the other hand is a type of ionizing radiation. But once again. Only when energized.

With the amout of paranoia I see exibited by some here about radiation I'm surprised some here fly at all given the amount of cosmic radiation that one receives in an aircraft at altitude...

Anyway, as I stated previously, my reason for opting out is based on principal, not for fear of radiation/MMW exposure. Plus it's fun to share my opt-out experiences here and compare notes with everyone.

Happy travels.

PTravel

1. I have.

2. My doctor advises me to avoid backscatter.

That's correct. I didn't say anything about MMW. I said, "backscatter." You need to do some research and learn the difference between the two machines.

That's correct. And since x-rays are invisible, there is no way to know when it's energized. It's operated by an untrained, unlicensed operator in another room. I don't trust the operator, and I don't trust the machine.

Now you are really demonstrating the lack of research you've done backscatter. Cosmic radiation is high-energy ionizing radiation that passes through the body. The backscatter uses low-energy ionizing radiation that concentrates in the skin (that's how it works). I hope you never have melanoma. If you had, as I have had, you wouldn't simply rely on TSA-provided, USA Today-level pseudoscience about something so potentially dangerous.

InkUnderNails

Well, this was disturbing. I did not see all of it but enough.

I was getting ready to go through the MMW today (yes, I do not opt out) and there was a woman in front of me that looked like she had been in a wreck or a really bad bar fight. The right side of her face was bruised, her eye was swollen and she looked to be in pain or medicated to the point of no pain.

She could not move her right arm but about 15 degrees from vertical. The TSO was trying to help her lift it to get her to get a good scan. Every time it was tried she winced. I was getting ready to say "stop" and explain medical opt out and sanity ensued. She was scanned with the right arm nearly at her side and got a gentle cursory pat down of the under arm area.

This whole process borders on the absurd.

FliesWay2Much

I'm surprised that she wasn't stopped by SPOTNiks and interrogated about whether or not she was running from an abusive relationship.

bdschobel

I flew out of EWR last night, Delta Terminal B. One line operating, 100% NOS. A woman three people in front of me opted out and was subjected to a level of abuse seldom seen. First, she was told that it would be a looooong wait. That didn't phase her. Then, she was told to stand in a far corner on the unscreened area, literally as far from her stuff as she could possibly be. She objected to that and was told that TSA staff would watch her stuff. (Yeah, sure.) She sat down on a chair eventually and was told that the chair is only for the disabled. She was forced to stand. Then TSA staff barked at her for moving the chair (a few feet at most). Eventually, she was moved to the other side for her pat-down, and a number of TSA staff were discussing her very loudly, in a way designed to embarrass her. She was in tears at this point.

Meanwhile, after the two people between me and her had passed through the NOS, I simply stated that I could not raise my arm. The moat dragon called out "walk-through" several times, and we waited for someone to man the WTMD. When nobody came after a minute or two, I volunteered to shout "walk-through" at a much louder volume since her colleagues were apparently ignoring her. She smiled and shouted again, slightly louder. Eventually, someone came and asked why I was a walk-through. She explained that I can't raise my arm. That was all. I walked through and got my stuff. But the delay allowed me to watch as the poor woman endured all manner of abuse.

What a monster of a Federal agency. They should all be fired.

Bruce

WillCAD

Sorry Ken, that was a typo on my part. I do know the difference between MMW and BSX, I just typed the wrong three-letter abbreviation in the post you quoted. I have corrected the post in question.

I'm not worried about radiation exposure with a MMW scanner. I've been extremely dubious of the many unsubstantiated claims of cancers and tumors supposedly caused by EM radiation from cell phones and power lines over the last 10-15 years, so naturally I don't see any great potential for the MMW scanner to cause them, either. My great objection to MMW was the invasion of privacy, although I must admit that concern is addressed by ATR, at least in theory; the current version of ATR has a higher false positive rate than the perv in a box. At least they've wised up a bit and gone to targeted area gropes instead of full-body gropes, which speeds up the lines, but dangit, ATR is in need of a lot more improvement before it becomes even moderately effective.

By the way, are there any scientific studies available about the amount of cosmic radiation one receives at altitude on a commercial flight? I mean, you're not that high, there is still plenty of atmosphere above you to protect you from cosmic radiation, not to mention the Van Allen Belt, the earth's own magnetic field, and the lower amounts you get when flying at night (you know, on the half of the planet that's turned away from the sun), so I'd be interested to see what those dosages are like, as compared to dosages on the ground at similar times of day and night.

exbayern

Recently I had a TSA encounter, and the male passenger in the queue ahead of me seemed to realise what was going on and came to my rescue. I actually thought of you, Ink, as I know that you and at least one other kind poster have offered to assist in past. I know that it wasn't you based on accent, build, and most likely nationality, but I'm glad that there are people like you and the gentleman I encountered who do sometimes speak up, even if unfortunately it may on occasion make the situation worse for me or for them.

If that stranger is reading here, thank you. I really did appreciate your assistance and you managed it so skillfully that I believe that the TSA was simply caught off guard and gave in to you (and thus to me). I didn't have a chance to say thank you in person before you left the checkpoint.

Bruce, that story about the woman is disgusting, but unfortunately not unfamiliar. It sounds similar to some of my recent experiences even though I legitimately cannot raise my arm, and don't use the term 'opt out'.

KenTarmac

1. Good.
2. I understand.

Yes, that section of my reply was directed at WillCAD who has since explained that his reference to MMW was a typo. As you'll see below. I do know the differences between the two.

Once again. I understand your concern.

Thank you. I'm sorry you've had to deal with melanoma. I lost an Uncle to it.

Really? Yes, I do know the differences far beyond a quick Google search or "TSA-provided, USA Today-level pseudoscience". I worked in industrial radiography for a number of years and I'm very well versed in the types, sources and effects of radiation. I'm also very well versed in how it's measured.

You're reading things into or out of what I actually said. No where did I say anything about the differences between the types of radiation. I simply cited cosmic radiation as a source of exposure for flyers. Don't interpret my lack of specifics as a lack of knowledge.

WillCad:

Thanks for the clarification. Like you, my greatest aversion to the scanners is the invasion of privacy.

Yes there are studies about exposure at altitude in an aircraft both for the flying public and the airline staff themselves (Pilots and FAs). Here's a link to a summary of many of the studies. The bottom line is the more you fly and the routes you fly will have the greatest bearing on your amount of exposure.

http://www.hps.org/publicinformation...alflights.html

flitcraft

I broke my leg four months ago and just now flew for the first time since surgery and wanted to share my opt-out experiences. I am wearing a removable cam boot on the bad leg and can walk with slight weight-bearing on the bad leg if I use a walker.

So, first up SEA. I decided to use a wheel chair to get through security. But the TSO spotted my collapsible walker being put through xray and told me to go through the BSX out of the chair. I told him that I couldn't do it--I can't stand more than a second or so, since I have to put almost all my weight on my good leg, and having to raise my arms would screw up my balance. Besides, I can't take off the boot if there is any chance that I would put my bad foot down.

Impasse. He wouldn't wave me through in the chair, since there was "evidence" I can walk. (Though, surely you can't take a walker into the BSX??) I asked for a supervisor, and insisted that I needed to stay in the chair. Supervisor comes, and the TSO tells them that I "claim I can't walk, although she's putting a walker through xray." I tell my story again to the supervisor, who tells the line TSO to have the chair pushed through and then I'll be patted down.

Patdown was pretty standard, including a peek into my pants, until the woman got to my bad leg. I have two pretty angry looking incisions down both sides of my ankle and a lot of hardward (plates, pins, screws) just under the skin at my ankle. As she started pressing hard on the area, I involuntarily yelped and she never apologized but just said, "Are you refusing to continue with security?" I was shocked at her insensitivity and said something I shouldn't have; something like "It's obviously extremely painful when you press hard against my incisions, is causing pain the part of your job you like most?" I know, childish on my part, but her pressing really did hurt and then for her to come on like I was being obstreperous really upset me. She called for the supervisor--same guy who had just left the scene--and I told him that pressing on my surgical incisions with the screws underneath was very painful and I couldn't help reacting. He was pretty reasonable, asked if I wanted a comment card (I did, lot of good it will do) and asked if I needed any additional help in collecting my boot and stuff. (I didn't because the wheelchair helper had already gotten my bag and walker off the belt for me.)

Given that experience, I really dreaded coming back. But the experience at SFO was much better. No objection to my being wheeled through, no skeptical "are you sure you can't walk" stuff, professional patdown without the python-grip over my incisions.

Sam I Am

A couple recent opt-out experiences:

BDL:
All passengers being herded through AIT. I informed the agent that I was opting out, and as they called for a male assist, an agent quietly told me how "that's always a good idea" and how he stays as far as possible from the machines, especially the hand luggage x-rays (they're even worse than that, he said, pointing at the AIT)

BDL (smaller checkpoint):
I selected the lane next to the crew lane. It was going very slowly. After a few crew members entered the crew lane, I motioned to the agent guarding their lane, and he let me in. SDOO success.

LAX T1:
Opt out in the early morning, and am asked "are you sure? it's going to be a while..." - I smiled and said that I'm patient. They asked me to stay to the side, where I couldn't see my belongings. I didn't move, explaining that my belongings would be out of sight. An agent who was just standing by the luggage x-ray offered to do the search immediately, which really annoyed the woman who first told me it would be a while. He changed his gloves to a new pair, fresh from the box, without me having to ask. He got a positive comment card (vague enough so as not to get him in trouble).

ASE:
Opt-out caused a few frowns, due to crowded conditions in the terminal post-security, was searched while surrounded by screened passengers just milling about. They were very quick at it, possibly because I had emptied my bag into many bins (lots of random electronic equipment with thick cases) and the outflow of the x-ray was full.

InkUnderNails

The last time I was through BDL in the fall they were using BSX. Has that changed? I failed my SDOO, alarmed the ETD after the grope, and asked for an LEO witness for the private re-check. Made for a very interesting opt out.