Whole Body Scanners Opt Out Stories [merged]
May 25, 2011, 6:57 am
#1291
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 353
Can you elaborate on this a bit? Namely, what do you mean by "swarming you" (I dislike people invading my personal space and dislike it even more when they do so in numbers and on all sides) and what was the outcome of the situation? Did the TSO put new gloves on and test them first?
May 25, 2011, 7:27 pm
#1292
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: BOS and vicinity
Programs: Former UA 1P
Posts: 3,725
I'm really proud of my wife. 
BOS Terminal B last week. Little traffic, one lane open with TSO directing some pax to the NoS and some to the WTMD. I get the WTMD and go through; TSO picks my wife for the NoS.
Wife points to the WTMD and says her husband went through that, why can't I? TSO said you don't get to choose. Wife says, "fine, I'm not going through that thing." TSO makes a minor attempt to talk her out of it, saying the scanner is safe, and my wife declines. (Female) TSO then rolls her eyes as starts complaining that now they have to find someone to do the patdown. Female TSO tries to pass off the patdown to a male colleague, who points out that he can't do it. So then they go dig up some other female screener to grope my wife. The seemed very inconvenienced at being made to do something other than stand around an empty checkpoint.
By the time they got the other female screener, I had put my belt/shoes back on and gathered my stuff, so I was able to concentrate entirely on observing.
Grope was not as bad as some have been and there was no effort to separate her from her stuff or delay us. I didn't observe any karate chopping. I don't know if she changed gloves, but I suspect she did since I saw her change gloves after. Watching the screener touch my wife's hair, which was completely pointless, was really weird. I glowered at the TSO the whole time from about 3 feet away, doing my best to give the impression that I wanted to harm her but was holding back. I never said a word. They did the ETD thing and then let her go.
Female TSO who did the patdown got sent to man the exit door, which I suspect is considered a cushy/easy job. Maybe that was her reward.
My wife understands my concerns with this whole charade but is not as vehement or activist as me. (doesn't fly a lot either) We have discussed the NoS and that I will not be going through one. We have discussed that I leave an extra 20-30 minutes for security at NoS stations. I honestly had no idea if she would opt out. But she remembered that this type of machine emitted x-rays and told me later she did not trust TSA's calibration/operation of them. (She also noticed herself at MSY later the same day that the MMW machines there were different, at which point I reiterated that I felt those machines were probably safe but I still would not go through one in principle.) She's more than educated enough (PhD in molecular genetics) to understand that x-rays can disrupt DNA and microwaves can't.
My wife felt the patdown was invasive and that parts of it were pointless (e.g., touching hair and non-loose clothing). She found the offer of private screening somewhat amusing and very much took the view of "do whatever you're going to do here, in public; I'm not ashamed." She was not upset or traumatized by the experience. She also is very matter-of-fact and not very sensitive about this sort of thing in general.
It was interesting to watch the process as an observer rather than as a participant. I would much rather have undergone it myself than watch her go through it. I'm not a violent or very physical person, but based on the feelings I experienced, I can easily see a husband or father who is more physical/aggressive than me and/or stressed for some unrelated reason committing serious physical violence against a screener doing the opt-out pat down. Yes it is "wrong," but IMO it is inevitable.
BOS Terminal B last week. Little traffic, one lane open with TSO directing some pax to the NoS and some to the WTMD. I get the WTMD and go through; TSO picks my wife for the NoS.
Wife points to the WTMD and says her husband went through that, why can't I? TSO said you don't get to choose. Wife says, "fine, I'm not going through that thing." TSO makes a minor attempt to talk her out of it, saying the scanner is safe, and my wife declines. (Female) TSO then rolls her eyes as starts complaining that now they have to find someone to do the patdown. Female TSO tries to pass off the patdown to a male colleague, who points out that he can't do it. So then they go dig up some other female screener to grope my wife. The seemed very inconvenienced at being made to do something other than stand around an empty checkpoint.
By the time they got the other female screener, I had put my belt/shoes back on and gathered my stuff, so I was able to concentrate entirely on observing.
Grope was not as bad as some have been and there was no effort to separate her from her stuff or delay us. I didn't observe any karate chopping. I don't know if she changed gloves, but I suspect she did since I saw her change gloves after. Watching the screener touch my wife's hair, which was completely pointless, was really weird. I glowered at the TSO the whole time from about 3 feet away, doing my best to give the impression that I wanted to harm her but was holding back. I never said a word. They did the ETD thing and then let her go.
Female TSO who did the patdown got sent to man the exit door, which I suspect is considered a cushy/easy job. Maybe that was her reward.
My wife understands my concerns with this whole charade but is not as vehement or activist as me. (doesn't fly a lot either) We have discussed the NoS and that I will not be going through one. We have discussed that I leave an extra 20-30 minutes for security at NoS stations. I honestly had no idea if she would opt out. But she remembered that this type of machine emitted x-rays and told me later she did not trust TSA's calibration/operation of them. (She also noticed herself at MSY later the same day that the MMW machines there were different, at which point I reiterated that I felt those machines were probably safe but I still would not go through one in principle.) She's more than educated enough (PhD in molecular genetics) to understand that x-rays can disrupt DNA and microwaves can't.
My wife felt the patdown was invasive and that parts of it were pointless (e.g., touching hair and non-loose clothing). She found the offer of private screening somewhat amusing and very much took the view of "do whatever you're going to do here, in public; I'm not ashamed." She was not upset or traumatized by the experience. She also is very matter-of-fact and not very sensitive about this sort of thing in general.
It was interesting to watch the process as an observer rather than as a participant. I would much rather have undergone it myself than watch her go through it. I'm not a violent or very physical person, but based on the feelings I experienced, I can easily see a husband or father who is more physical/aggressive than me and/or stressed for some unrelated reason committing serious physical violence against a screener doing the opt-out pat down. Yes it is "wrong," but IMO it is inevitable.
May 26, 2011, 2:12 pm
#1293
Join Date: Sep 2005
Programs: EXP AA, Diamond HH
Posts: 9
I'm really proud of my wife.
My wife understands my concerns with this whole charade but is not as vehement or activist as me. (doesn't fly a lot either) We have discussed the NoS and that I will not be going through one. We have discussed that I leave an extra 20-30 minutes for security at NoS stations. I honestly had no idea if she would opt out. But she remembered that this type of machine emitted x-rays and told me later she did not trust TSA's calibration/operation of them. (She also noticed herself at MSY later the same day that the MMW machines there were different, at which point I reiterated that I felt those machines were probably safe but I still would not go through one in principle.) She's more than educated enough (PhD in molecular genetics) to understand that x-rays can disrupt DNA and microwaves can't.
.
My wife understands my concerns with this whole charade but is not as vehement or activist as me. (doesn't fly a lot either) We have discussed the NoS and that I will not be going through one. We have discussed that I leave an extra 20-30 minutes for security at NoS stations. I honestly had no idea if she would opt out. But she remembered that this type of machine emitted x-rays and told me later she did not trust TSA's calibration/operation of them. (She also noticed herself at MSY later the same day that the MMW machines there were different, at which point I reiterated that I felt those machines were probably safe but I still would not go through one in principle.) She's more than educated enough (PhD in molecular genetics) to understand that x-rays can disrupt DNA and microwaves can't.
.
May 27, 2011, 3:17 am
#1294
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,662
1) MMW scanners in use at airports are sub-THz. (Wavelength of between 1mm and 10mm, so a frequency of around 30GHz to 300GHz.)
2) What's the proof that THz radiation causes harm? A researcher at Los Alamos created a model wherein he theorized such damage was possible but no experimentation was done. Then folks at Cornell studied his work and showed it doesn't really apply in the real world. (Warning, physics ahead!)
The field strength necessary (estimated gener- ously) to generate breather modes is approximately 10^9 V/m, which is much greater than the dielectric break- down threshold of air (∼ 10^6 V/m).
May 27, 2011, 8:37 am
#1295
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: DC Metro
Programs: SPG, Continental OnePass
Posts: 7
Good experience with TSOs, bad experience with TSA
I've posted in this forum before, but it was a ways back so basic stats again: Fly DCA-IAH every week, always go through the same checkpoints, always opt out of the scanners.
This week was pretty awful, I got a very bad stomach virus and ended up in the hospital Wednesday night, so instead of my typical Thursday evening flight, I was on a 7:35 AM flight. I could barely walk and was dreading the checkpoint as I just had a bad feeling. Sure enough, the scanner is open and I have to opt out. I've had a million pat downs, so whatever. The lady doing the pat down is definitely new, they have another female TSO supervising her. I told her my stomach was extremely sensitive as well as my arm (had an IV) and that I'm very weak. Pat down goes down fine, but when she swabs her gloves and tests the swab, it comes up as explosives detected...
This has never happened to me before, and I'm freaked out obviously, especially when they tell me that they're going to have to do a more enhanced search in a private room. I tell them I don't want to go into a private room, and that they can do the search in public. I haven't slept or eaten in over 24 hours and I'm incredibly sick, so visions are popping up in my head of being interrogated for hours, getting strip searched, etc... I'm also traveling alone. I continue to insist I will not go into a private room and I will just leave the checkpoint, and so they bring over a male supervisor to talk to me.
The supervisor was very nice, he promised me there would be no removal of clothing and the only reason they had to do it in private is because they would use the front of the hand instead of the back of the hand on "sensitive areas". He told me he would hate for me to miss my flight because of something that small (and seemed genuine, not mean or threatening).
It must have been quite a scene, there are 3 TSOs surrounding me, and I'm in a small person in a tank top and yoga pants with an IV bandage on one arm and a hospital bracelet on the other, crying openly at this point in the middle of the checkpoint because I'm so afraid/wrung out in general. I get too worn down to fight it anymore, I just want to get home into my own bed, so I agree to go into the private room.
They call another (third) female TSO over to do the screening in the private room, and I'm still crying, and I think they all felt really bad (all three females were in the private room). The pat down in the private room was honestly less invasive than the one they did in public, and the swab came out clean (of course, because obviously I don't carry explosives!).
The kicker though, was the 3rd female TSO recognized me halfway through my second pat down. She'd done my pat down the previous week... After she was done I was still crying, and she gave me a hug (very, very nice lady). I asked them why the detector would have gone off and they said lotions, powders. I figure it must have been something from the hospital, because that's the only thing I did differently that week... I explained to them the reasons why I opt out, and suggested to them that they might want to wear radiation monitors. They seemed to understand and one of them looked very thoughtful at that mention.
So overall it turned out okay, and it made me think a lot about the attitude I sometimes have towards the TSOs... yes some of them are bullies and can be abuse power, but a lot of them are decent people who just have a job to do...
I still can't stand the ORGANIZATION in general, perhaps even more so. What are they doing wasting 3 officers on me, especially after one of them recognizes me? It's just inane and it's a waste of resources.
This week was pretty awful, I got a very bad stomach virus and ended up in the hospital Wednesday night, so instead of my typical Thursday evening flight, I was on a 7:35 AM flight. I could barely walk and was dreading the checkpoint as I just had a bad feeling. Sure enough, the scanner is open and I have to opt out. I've had a million pat downs, so whatever. The lady doing the pat down is definitely new, they have another female TSO supervising her. I told her my stomach was extremely sensitive as well as my arm (had an IV) and that I'm very weak. Pat down goes down fine, but when she swabs her gloves and tests the swab, it comes up as explosives detected...
This has never happened to me before, and I'm freaked out obviously, especially when they tell me that they're going to have to do a more enhanced search in a private room. I tell them I don't want to go into a private room, and that they can do the search in public. I haven't slept or eaten in over 24 hours and I'm incredibly sick, so visions are popping up in my head of being interrogated for hours, getting strip searched, etc... I'm also traveling alone. I continue to insist I will not go into a private room and I will just leave the checkpoint, and so they bring over a male supervisor to talk to me.
The supervisor was very nice, he promised me there would be no removal of clothing and the only reason they had to do it in private is because they would use the front of the hand instead of the back of the hand on "sensitive areas". He told me he would hate for me to miss my flight because of something that small (and seemed genuine, not mean or threatening).
It must have been quite a scene, there are 3 TSOs surrounding me, and I'm in a small person in a tank top and yoga pants with an IV bandage on one arm and a hospital bracelet on the other, crying openly at this point in the middle of the checkpoint because I'm so afraid/wrung out in general. I get too worn down to fight it anymore, I just want to get home into my own bed, so I agree to go into the private room.
They call another (third) female TSO over to do the screening in the private room, and I'm still crying, and I think they all felt really bad (all three females were in the private room). The pat down in the private room was honestly less invasive than the one they did in public, and the swab came out clean (of course, because obviously I don't carry explosives!).
The kicker though, was the 3rd female TSO recognized me halfway through my second pat down. She'd done my pat down the previous week... After she was done I was still crying, and she gave me a hug (very, very nice lady). I asked them why the detector would have gone off and they said lotions, powders. I figure it must have been something from the hospital, because that's the only thing I did differently that week... I explained to them the reasons why I opt out, and suggested to them that they might want to wear radiation monitors. They seemed to understand and one of them looked very thoughtful at that mention.
So overall it turned out okay, and it made me think a lot about the attitude I sometimes have towards the TSOs... yes some of them are bullies and can be abuse power, but a lot of them are decent people who just have a job to do...
I still can't stand the ORGANIZATION in general, perhaps even more so. What are they doing wasting 3 officers on me, especially after one of them recognizes me? It's just inane and it's a waste of resources.
May 27, 2011, 8:45 am
#1296
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 44
uhm...this might sound odd or childish...but whislt being in those nude-o-scopes, has anyone "inadvertently" flatulated? if so, do you carry on as usual and mind your business or do you raise your had and explain to the tsa attendant that you passed gas?
just asking/wondering.........
^
just asking/wondering.........
^
May 27, 2011, 8:51 am
#1297
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: An NPR mind living in a Fox News world
Posts: 14,165
The supervisor was very nice, he promised me there would be no removal of clothing and the only reason they had to do it in private is because they would use the front of the hand instead of the back of the hand on "sensitive areas". He told me he would hate for me to miss my flight because of something that small (and seemed genuine, not mean or threatening).
I can only conclude that the TSA believes that explosive can only be hidden in genitals.
May 27, 2011, 9:00 am
#1298
Join Date: May 2010
Location: FLL - Nice and Warm
Programs: TSA Disparager Gold
Posts: 1,025
I'm against the nude-o-scopes as much as anyone, but I think you're missing something:
1) MMW scanners in use at airports are sub-THz. (Wavelength of between 1mm and 10mm, so a frequency of around 30GHz to 300GHz.)
2) What's the proof that THz radiation causes harm? A researcher at Los Alamos created a model wherein he theorized such damage was possible but no experimentation was done. Then folks at Cornell studied his work and showed it doesn't really apply in the real world. (Warning, physics ahead!)
Warning: if the scanner looks like a tesla coil then opt out!
1) MMW scanners in use at airports are sub-THz. (Wavelength of between 1mm and 10mm, so a frequency of around 30GHz to 300GHz.)
2) What's the proof that THz radiation causes harm? A researcher at Los Alamos created a model wherein he theorized such damage was possible but no experimentation was done. Then folks at Cornell studied his work and showed it doesn't really apply in the real world. (Warning, physics ahead!)
Warning: if the scanner looks like a tesla coil then opt out!
They do transmit at about 30Ghz, nowhere near 1Thz (1000Ghz), and their power level is EXTREMELY LOW, as the receiving antenna is only 10-20 inches away. I hate to say that gov't is correct on this topic - The field strength is more than 1000X LESS than your cell phone, and is of similar biological danger, as the frequency involved is closer to microwave or cellular than Terahertz. The MM Wave Scanners are approximately as dangerous as a cell phone at 50 feet away. Nobody has proven cell phones to be a danger when used inches away from your head after more than 20 years of investigation, therefore the field strength at 50 feet should be considered safe.
With this in mind, I am not unhappy to see this misinformation propagated, as use of these devices needs to be actively resisted, and public apprehension can only be a good thing.
May 27, 2011, 9:22 am
#1299
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: BOS
Programs: UA 1P
Posts: 1,356
Interesting explanation. It's clear that the "private room" is solely for the TSA's benefit, so the public won't see the clerk cupping and presumably holding genitals. He also sugar-coated the DY...T threat. Regardless of how he played "good cop," he still threatened you.
I can only conclude that the TSA believes that explosive can only be hidden in genitals.
I can only conclude that the TSA believes that explosive can only be hidden in genitals.
May 27, 2011, 9:26 am
#1300
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: DC Metro
Programs: SPG, Continental OnePass
Posts: 7
I would have fought a lot harder normally, but as I mentioned, I wasn't exactly in possession of my usual mental facilities... Typically I'm very, very stubborn.
May 27, 2011, 9:30 am
#1301
Suspended
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,728
After all - if the TSA had nothing to hide, why would they insist on the private room when the person being screened waives it?
May 27, 2011, 10:12 am
#1302
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: BOS
Programs: DL PM, Hertz Gold Plus, SPG Gold
Posts: 1,049
The lady doing the pat down is definitely new...
...when she swabs her gloves and tests the swab, it comes up as explosives detected...
...I asked them why the detector would have gone off and they said lotions, powders. I figure it must have been something from the hospital, because that's the only thing I did differently that week...
...when she swabs her gloves and tests the swab, it comes up as explosives detected...
...I asked them why the detector would have gone off and they said lotions, powders. I figure it must have been something from the hospital, because that's the only thing I did differently that week...
May 27, 2011, 10:37 am
#1303
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: Sometimes BA, sometimes AA
Posts: 663
My wife and I passed through BOS twice and RDU once last week, our first US air travel since the machines were introduced. I think my wife wasn't asked once but certainly had to opt out either once or twice, and I was selected and had to opt out all three times.
I found the attitudes of all involved to be absolutely professional and the manual search was swift, efficient and exactly the same all three times. There was no cupping of genitals or anything intrusive: they checked my inner legs right to the top. Big deal. Nothing my tailor hasn't done before! And any sensitive areas (for me I think that only meant the buttocks) were done with the backs of the hands. They gave a running commentary so there were no surprises, I was allowed to take my personal possessions off the belt and was offered a private area each time.
I felt I needed to post this to add a bit of contrast to the very negative balance to the thread. We'd been quite concerned about the idea of travelling through US airports, mostly from reading the hysteria on this thread, and afterwards we wondered what all the fuss was about.
(A couple of the agents directing people what to put in the trays, what shoes and belts to remove etc. were pretty obnoxious though.)
I found the attitudes of all involved to be absolutely professional and the manual search was swift, efficient and exactly the same all three times. There was no cupping of genitals or anything intrusive: they checked my inner legs right to the top. Big deal. Nothing my tailor hasn't done before! And any sensitive areas (for me I think that only meant the buttocks) were done with the backs of the hands. They gave a running commentary so there were no surprises, I was allowed to take my personal possessions off the belt and was offered a private area each time.
I felt I needed to post this to add a bit of contrast to the very negative balance to the thread. We'd been quite concerned about the idea of travelling through US airports, mostly from reading the hysteria on this thread, and afterwards we wondered what all the fuss was about.
(A couple of the agents directing people what to put in the trays, what shoes and belts to remove etc. were pretty obnoxious though.)
May 27, 2011, 10:57 am
#1304
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: CMH
Programs: Delta Gold Medallion, United
Posts: 433
My wife and I passed through BOS twice and RDU once last week, our first US air travel since the machines were introduced. I think my wife wasn't asked once but certainly had to opt out either once or twice, and I was selected and had to opt out all three times.
I found the attitudes of all involved to be absolutely professional and the manual search was swift, efficient and exactly the same all three times. There was no cupping of genitals or anything intrusive: they checked my inner legs right to the top. Big deal. Nothing my tailor hasn't done before! And any sensitive areas (for me I think that only meant the buttocks) were done with the backs of the hands. They gave a running commentary so there were no surprises, I was allowed to take my personal possessions off the belt and was offered a private area each time.
I felt I needed to post this to add a bit of contrast to the very negative balance to the thread. We'd been quite concerned about the idea of travelling through US airports, mostly from reading the hysteria on this thread, and afterwards we wondered what all the fuss was about.
(A couple of the agents directing people what to put in the trays, what shoes and belts to remove etc. were pretty obnoxious though.)
I found the attitudes of all involved to be absolutely professional and the manual search was swift, efficient and exactly the same all three times. There was no cupping of genitals or anything intrusive: they checked my inner legs right to the top. Big deal. Nothing my tailor hasn't done before! And any sensitive areas (for me I think that only meant the buttocks) were done with the backs of the hands. They gave a running commentary so there were no surprises, I was allowed to take my personal possessions off the belt and was offered a private area each time.
I felt I needed to post this to add a bit of contrast to the very negative balance to the thread. We'd been quite concerned about the idea of travelling through US airports, mostly from reading the hysteria on this thread, and afterwards we wondered what all the fuss was about.
(A couple of the agents directing people what to put in the trays, what shoes and belts to remove etc. were pretty obnoxious though.)
I'm all for balance, and I truly am pleased to hear the good stories but that doesn't mean the poor experiences should be labeled as hysteria by any means. You could have many, many good experiences, and that 20th or 10th or 50th could be an anomaly and I'm sure you wouldn't appreciate someone else giving your experience a negative label.
May 27, 2011, 11:46 am
#1305
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: Sometimes BA, sometimes AA
Posts: 663