Originally Posted by Dovster
(Post 13850055)
The question was whether citizens had to present passports to government officials and, of course, citizens are not in the country on visas. (In fact, as an American citizen I am not even eligible for a US visa on my Israeli passport.)
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 13850094)
On a daily basis at various airports in the US, US government officials (namely, CBP) demand that even US citizens present their (US) passport to them, and, of course, US citizens are not in the country on (US) visas.
I have never even seen anyone from the CBP when flying out. |
Originally Posted by yyzvoyageur
(Post 13848718)
The last time I drove (well, the van we hired drove) from Shenzhen to Hong Kong, we saw an immigration officer who checked our documents. Another government employee then approached us to collect health declaration forms. After collecting our passports, we drove off, passing a second booth (perhaps two metres behind the immigration officer's booth) that was staffed by a customs officer who, presumably, flags down people to examine based solely on appearance and physical indicators. I couldn't help but consider this a waste of resources.
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Originally Posted by Dovster
(Post 13850108)
When does the CBP demand to see the passport of an American leaving the country?
Originally Posted by Dovster
I have never even seen anyone from the CBP when flying out.
Here is another report of CBP doing its thing demanding passports of persons departing the US, including US citizens. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trave...-boarding.html |
Originally Posted by cparekh
(Post 13846674)
One thing CBP could do to help us understand is to completely separate immigration from customs. The purpose of immigration is to determine whether a person should be allowed to enter the USA. The purpose of customs is to determine whether goods are allowed to enter the USA. Combining the process, as we partly do now, leads to confusion.
If they were separate, there would be no reason for immigration agents to ask questions other than to determine whether the person is allowed to enter a country. A parallel is when the TSA TDC asks about your destination. On the other hand, the customs agents (who coincidently happen to be from the same agency) could concentrate on detecting contraband, unpaid duties, and dangerous goods. Also, I think the traveling public would feel better about completely separate processes, because the purpose would be more clear to us. This is how they do it in places like Hong Kong, China, Singapore, Japan, UAE, UK, Europe etc. However, when entering countries where the first officer you interact with at the counter performs both immigration and customs tasks (Canada, US, Australia etc.), the experience is usually worse as the officer would ask a lot of questions even to their own citizens returning to their own country. What the OP experienced when entering the US as a US Citizen and being asked by the officer at the entry point for the purpose of his trip to China was actually a customs and NOT an immigration related question (the officer would have already established the fact the OP is allowed to enter the US, and therefore started to ask customs related questions). Had the US CBP seperated the functions of immigration and customs, the OP's experience would have been a lot more pleasant. The exchange would occur as follows: OP gets off international flight, approaches "IMMIGRATION" counter and presents his US passport. The Immigration officer sees that the OP is a US Citizen and he remembles picture in his passport. The OP is waved through without any questions asked. The OP goes to the baggage claim and gets his bags. After the OP gets his bags, four situations can occur: 1) OP has nothing to declare and goes through the "green" channel. He walks past the "CUSTOMS" officers, and they wave him through. (This should happen in most cases). 2) OP has nothing to declare and goes through the "green" channel. As he walks past the "CUSTOMS" officers, he gets pulled aside for interrogation. He gets asked questions like "what was the purpose of your trip to China?" Depending on the OP's answer he may or may not have his bags searched. 3) OP has stuff to declare and goes through the "red" channel. He pays the cashier the duties on the purchases he made abroad and can then go home. 4) OP has stuff to declare and goes through the "red" channel. His bags get throughly searched, and he gets interrogated extensively about his trip. |
Originally Posted by daniellam
(Post 13850213)
What the OP experienced when entering the US as a US Citizen and being asked by the officer at the entry point for the purpose of his trip to China was actually a customs and NOT an immigration related question (the officer would have already established the fact the OP is allowed to enter the US, and therefore started to ask customs related questions).
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 13850187)
Then you must not be flying out of the US as much or on the same routes as those of us here who are witnesses to the CBP demanding to see the passport of those -- Americans included -- leaving the US on the flights where CBP is doing as mentioned. |
I have seen US officials in the jetway checking people on flights from the US to ZRH and IST, possibly others.
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Originally Posted by DesertNomad
(Post 13850437)
I have seen US officials in the jetway checking people on flights from the US to ZRH and IST, possibly others.
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Originally Posted by GUWonder
(Post 13850597)
In addition to US to ZRH and US to IST flights, I've seen this at the gates for flights from the US to LHR and from the US to every airport mentioned in posts in this thread.
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Originally Posted by Dovster
(Post 13850055)
The question was whether citizens had to present passports to government officials and, of course, citizens are not in the country on visas. (In fact, as an American citizen I am not even eligible for a US visa on my Israeli passport.)
In addition to non-citizens being required to report to a government official on departure, I would estimate, based on my personal experiences, that on any given day about 5% of departing US citizens are stopped and required to show their passport to a CBP or other US Government official. Additionally, perhaps another 5% of departing US citizens are asked by a smurf to show their passport at security checkpoints. |
Originally Posted by PaulKarl
(Post 13832849)
There are two fundamental rights at issue. The first is the right of U.S. citizens to re-enter their country; once a citizen has provided authentic proof of citizenship, this right cannot be made contingent upon an interrogation or release of data. The second is the right to remain silent.
There is also the collateral issue of tone. Under the U.S. procedures, the government treats all returning citizens as potential criminals. And routine snooping into people's lives creates an atmosphere of official omnipotence and unaccountability. Yesterday, I was reentering the United States after a trip to Japan. Since I had several hours before my connecting flight (and was in no rush in general), I was prepared to decline to answer any questions asked of me by CBP. Similar to other posters experiences, I either get a bunch of questions or none at all. Unfortunately, this time, I was only asked how long I was gone (which I answered). In the past, I've been asked everything from had I ever been arrested to what I do for work. It annoys me that I receive more of an interrogation coming HOME than entering most foreign countries. |
Originally Posted by xanthuos
(Post 13852187)
+1! ^
In the past, I've been asked everything from had I ever been arrested to what I do for work. It annoys me that I receive more of an interrogation coming HOME than entering most foreign countries. I know that others have stated that part of the reason for asking these questions is to gauge reaction and try to use Jedi mind powers to catch someone committing a crime. In the case above, though, I'm less interested in the real reason behind the questioning and more interested in how the CBP agent tries to spin things (or if s/he spins things) in their favor. Dare I pose a hypothesis that a significant number of those in authority over us might consider telling passengers a little white lie (or a really big one)? I'm not the gambling sort, but I'd probably be willing to risk a week's salary over the answer to that question being "yes". ;) |
Originally Posted by clrankin
(Post 13852434)
Dare I pose a hypothesis that a significant number of those in authority over us might consider telling passengers a little white lie (or a really big one)? I'm not the gambling sort, but I'd probably be willing to risk a week's salary over the answer to that question being "yes". ;)
NB: It's part two of James Duane's lecture, on the same subject. |
Originally Posted by SkiAdcock
(Post 13849559)
For those saying, good for you to the OP & that you'd do the same re: refusing to answer the questions, a few questions:
1) ARE you actually doing the same EVER SINGLE TIME YOU come back to the US? 2) If you ARE doing the same every single time, are you ALSO filing reports, contacting the higher ups, pushing it up the ladder, or are you just doing the civil disobedience w/ the guys at the counter? To me, unless you're doing BOTH 1 & 2 EVERY SINGLE TIME, a lot of this is just talking to the hand ;) As others have stated, every person makes a decision (consciously or not) when approaching a CBP checkpoint. Sometimes, the decision to assert one's rights under the law requires paying a cost --- in time, in convenience, in privacy, and perhaps other matters, both to oneself and to one's traveling companions. Different people choose to weight the costs vs. the benefits in different ways --- sometimes, even from flight to flight. I'm not about to judge how another person makes those decisions. Besides, sometimes all it takes is one person doing the right thing in order to get the precedent set. Ask Steve Bierfeldt. Ask Rosa Parks. (As for me ... well, I'm not a good choice to answer the question, considering the interval between international flights for me is typically measured in years.) |
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