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Flyer “Processed” (Arrested?) in NM After Declining to Show ID

Flyer “Processed” (Arrested?) in NM After Declining to Show ID

Old Dec 4, 10, 10:49 pm
  #856  
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Originally Posted by camerawork View Post
...and can TSA be legally considered the custodian of the property?
Of the airport? Not likely. The airport authority controls the airport and essentially grant space to the TSA
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Old Dec 5, 10, 12:42 am
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I don't mean to be a deterrent to a good cause because what has happened here is not acceptable and needs to make an example of the ABQ police. But, IIRC I thought the DA couldn't even possibly (let alone the courts hear the case) present the case to the courts if he truly hasn't broken any laws, IANAL, I don't live in NM nor do I know any laws there but from what I read it seems to be clear as day that he has not broken any laws so why would the courts even CONSIDER allowing the DA to try the case? Let me guess? Flawed injustice? I guess they will always allow this, on the other hand you are innocent until proven guilty by your peers (or you are guilty until proven innocent).

I don't know why we're wasting tax dollars when this is a clear cut situation if the law explicitly says no ID is required, hell even the TSA says no ID is required so why are they even enforcing it yet they truthfully say so. Its too bad I can't try this myself, I don't have enough information and I have an agenda not worthy of getting arrested.
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Old Dec 5, 10, 2:33 am
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He could be charged with trespassing the secure area of the airport, but he materially never made it that far. The public areas of the airport are, by definition, public. One does not need a boarding pass or ID or screening to access those areas. Only the airport operator has the authority to ban someone from the public side of the airport. LE and not TSA would enforce it.

As an aside, I too am surprised by what has happened so far. What kind of lawyer did you get? How was the initial motion to dismiss denied by the judge?! Or is the hearing you are attending on the 7th the actual initial hearing post-bail?
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Old Dec 5, 10, 4:48 am
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Of course, not too much is "public" in an airport anymore.
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Old Dec 5, 10, 5:22 am
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Originally Posted by mynetdude View Post
I don't mean to be a deterrent to a good cause because what has happened here is not acceptable and needs to make an example of the ABQ police. But, IIRC I thought the DA couldn't even possibly (let alone the courts hear the case) present the case to the courts if he truly hasn't broken any laws, IANAL, I don't live in NM nor do I know any laws there but from what I read it seems to be clear as day that he has not broken any laws so why would the courts even CONSIDER allowing the DA to try the case? Let me guess? Flawed injustice? I guess they will always allow this, on the other hand you are innocent until proven guilty by your peers (or you are guilty until proven innocent).

I don't know why we're wasting tax dollars when this is a clear cut situation if the law explicitly says no ID is required, hell even the TSA says no ID is required so why are they even enforcing it yet they truthfully say so. Its too bad I can't try this myself, I don't have enough information and I have an agenda not worthy of getting arrested.

But this is exactly what happens here in Cleveland. The local paper just got done doing a four part feature on the activity of the DAs office. the DAs office routinely puts together cases to go to trial that are thrown out by the judge for lack of evidence. The DA admitted that he does present cases that may be lacking but lets the judge sort things out. Obviously the judges are furious at the DAs office for wasting their time on baseless cases.

Ed
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Old Dec 5, 10, 5:35 am
  #861  
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Originally Posted by mynetdude View Post
I don't mean to be a deterrent to a good cause because what has happened here is not acceptable and needs to make an example of the ABQ police. But, IIRC I thought the DA couldn't even possibly (let alone the courts hear the case) present the case to the courts if he truly hasn't broken any laws, IANAL, I don't live in NM nor do I know any laws there but from what I read it seems to be clear as day that he has not broken any laws so why would the courts even CONSIDER allowing the DA to try the case? Let me guess? Flawed injustice? I guess they will always allow this, on the other hand you are innocent until proven guilty by your peers (or you are guilty until proven innocent).

I don't know why we're wasting tax dollars when this is a clear cut situation if the law explicitly says no ID is required, hell even the TSA says no ID is required so why are they even enforcing it yet they truthfully say so. Its too bad I can't try this myself, I don't have enough information and I have an agenda not worthy of getting arrested.
I expect both charges will be dismissed with prejudice.
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Old Dec 5, 10, 6:43 am
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Originally Posted by doober View Post
If you read Sherri's blog a little further you will see that apparently her doctor's office is requiring a photo ID each and every time a patient comes in for a visit - in compliance with some FTC rule, allegedly designed to stop identity theft.
Photo ID to see doctor
About a month ago, I had to get some of my father's medical records for a VA application. I told the doctor (during one of my father's visits) that I'd need this info. He said he'd have it waiting for me at the desk. The office called one day and said it was ready for pick up.

I went into the office and told the receptionist that I was there for the documents.

She *refused* to release the documents to me without a photo id. I said, "You're kidding me, right?"

She was not.

I pointed out that THEIR office called ME and told me these documents were ready. She said she would not release the documents until I produced a government-issued photo ID.

I then asked if theft of Thomas Hoyt's medical records was a common problem at this facility and she said, "No."

Long story but I had to produce my driver's license - which they took and COPIED - before they'd give me my father's medical records.

BTW, I'm his POA and on his HIPPA forms, so this was not about any of that.

So, I guess in addition to "For The Children" we can now add, "For the Elders."

TSA and DHS and all their TomThuggery - coming to a medical office near you.

Rose
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Old Dec 5, 10, 7:15 am
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Originally Posted by RosemaryT View Post
About a month ago, I had to get some of my father's medical records for a VA application. I told the doctor (during one of my father's visits) that I'd need this info. He said he'd have it waiting for me at the desk. The office called one day and said it was ready for pick up.

I went into the office and told the receptionist that I was there for the documents.

She *refused* to release the documents to me without a photo id. I said, "You're kidding me, right?"

She was not.

I pointed out that THEIR office called ME and told me these documents were ready. She said she would not release the documents until I produced a government-issued photo ID.

I then asked if theft of Thomas Hoyt's medical records was a common problem at this facility and she said, "No."

Long story but I had to produce my driver's license - which they took and COPIED - before they'd give me my father's medical records.

BTW, I'm his POA and on his HIPPA forms, so this was not about any of that.

So, I guess in addition to "For The Children" we can now add, "For the Elders."

TSA and DHS and all their TomThuggery - coming to a medical office near you.

Rose
I understand and agree with your concerns, yet let's be reasonable and state that in the event of an audit, how does a 3rd party measure that the person picking up the documents were you? I could just as simply have walked up and declared "I am that person, please give me what you have for that person". This way, like it or not, an auditor can look at the copy and say "that person picked up that document", and if the id was forged, they can claim best-effort controls and forward it to the authorities for follow-up.

This is really just another reason to get a passport card. It is a photo id issued by a government agency, and contains nothing except your Passport No, Nationality, Name, DOB, POB, and issue and expire date. No address, or other PII or SPII data (let's not go down the rabbit-hole of rfid). If anyone knows of a government issued id that has less data on it, please share.
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Old Dec 5, 10, 8:10 am
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I see Rosemary's concerns too, but a medical office isn't the government, they're a private entity, and as such can make any demands they want before releasing anything.

Short of breaking the law....
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Old Dec 5, 10, 8:23 am
  #865  
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Originally Posted by mikemey View Post
I see Rosemary's concerns too, but a medical office isn't the government, they're a private entity, and as such can make any demands they want before releasing anything.

Short of breaking the law....
Actually they require ID because of a federal law HIPAA and the limitations to how they can share medical information. I disagree and would've complained about them xeroxing my id but not by them asking to see it.
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Old Dec 5, 10, 8:23 am
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Phil had an airline ticket that day giving him a valid reason to be at that airport.

A tenant of the airport took money in return for a service requiring Phil's presence and in my mind there is no way Phil could be guilty of trespass.

Last edited by Boggie Dog; Dec 5, 10 at 9:14 am
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Old Dec 5, 10, 8:53 am
  #867  
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Originally Posted by Firebug4 View Post
Regardless of what initiated Mr Mocek's contact with the police department, it is Mr. Mocek's conduct in dealing with the Law Enforcement Officer that is reason he was arrested. This case appears to have little to due with the TSA. It is not about the TSA ID procedures. Mr. Mocek had the correct information when dealing with TSA and what he was allowed to do regarding those policies and procedures. What he didn't know was what the local ordinances were and what he could and couldn't do when dealing with the local police. His charges are related to information that he wouldn't give to the Law Enforcement Officer not information that he wouldn't give to the TSA.

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Old Dec 5, 10, 10:44 am
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Originally Posted by GoingAway View Post
Actually they require ID because of a federal law HIPAA and the limitations to how they can share medical information. I disagree and would've complained about them xeroxing my id but not by them asking to see it.
I'd agree that the least-intrusive method of data-retrieval would be a hand-written copy of the person's name, and their linking datum-point (passport number, DL number, etc). If a legal issue arose, there'd be a challenge to get the back-end data, yet it would doable, so why no hand-written docs? As long as they photo-copied the document in my presence, I'm not sure I could argue too much. No taking my documents to a back-room, out of my sight. Given that...

I'd argue that the auditors would require at least one piece of SPII data (including a photocopy of the id), and you could claim that the photo on that id is that data. There has to be something that the least-common-denominator auditor can look at, and say yes or no to if that id matches that person. height/weight/age/etc might not be enough. This way, you're moving attestation of document review from the person who accepted the id, to the person who audits the record.

Let's put it this way. When someone enters the country, someone has to attest that the passport that someone is holding matches the person holding that passport. That's usually the first person you meet, which is someone trained to match the passport to the person, who then enters the match in the computer, hence attesting to the match. In the doctor's office, someone in the process has to attest to this, and I suspect that that attestation would not be the office-clerk taking the photocopy, it would be the auditor reviewing the photocopy, and the auditor will need a copy of your id, for their review.

I've accepted that just about anyone dealing with the release of financial or medical transaction details are going to want a photocopy of a government-issued photo id. Having been on both sides of the audit process, I can understand this. You can't change the what, yet you can take ownership of the how. The question becomes... what is the least-identifying piece of government-issued photo id? Right now, that appears to be a passport card. No address, no phone number, just a name, birth date, place of birth, and passport number. It's government issued, which means that someone has verified that you are the person who submitted the application and that the picture matches you.

Put yourself in the shoes of the office clerk. They're holding a document that says "release to John Doe". Someone shows up and says "I'm JD, please give me the docs". How do they know it's you, and what do they have to present to someone later (auditor, regulatory review, etc) to prove they did their job (identification verification)? The path of lease resistance is a photocopy of a government issued photo-id. So, all you have to do is provide them with an id that has nothing except your picture and your name.
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Old Dec 5, 10, 10:44 am
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Originally Posted by Spiff View Post

The airlines, yes. For revenue protection.

The TSA, absolutely not. They have no valid reason to check ID.
I agree the airlines need to confirm identity.

However, TSA's function is to check for disallowed items passing through security. The passenger's name has no relationship to potentially banned items.

Although I would not have made such an issue (because I do not want to be delayed), I must applaud the person for his attempt to curtail a portion of the abuse currently inflicted on innocent passengers while encountering TSA.
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Old Dec 5, 10, 10:51 am
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Originally Posted by dgcpaphd View Post
I agree the airlines need to confirm identity.

However, TSA's function is to check for disallowed items passing through security. The passenger's name has no relationship to potentially banned items.

Although I would not have made such an issue (because I do not want to be delayed), I must applaud the person for his attempt to curtail a portion of the abuse currently inflicted on innocent passengers while encountering TSA.
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My hatred of the TSA is well documented, but it would open up a significant loophole if there was no ID check to get into the secure area. A clear person buys a ticket and hands it off to someone on the no-fly list. While the TSA in theory should stop them from bringing "dangerous" items in, we all know that is crap, so to prevent no-fly violations there needs to be some ID check before getting on a plane.
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