DeaconFlyer

Oh give it a rest. If he had invited you to pound sand, would you expect him to drive you to the beach?

You're starting to sound like a spoiled child who wants everything handed him to him on a silver platter. Call the number, chose the most appropriate of the *gasp* nine choices, get someone on the phone, and ask them to transfer you to the legal department. Have you never placed a phone call to a large office before?

ND Sol

Perhaps you need to review the bidding. I didn't demand that he give me the name and number. He offered for us to contact his legal counsel, but then we find out that his offer was insincere. My request was minor especially compared to the inept analogy you attempted to proffer.

So why should I have to spend probably at least 1/2 hour trying to track someone down when Sgt. Scott could provide me the info in a few seconds. He has the ability to make it happen, but after he was called on it, he has now specifically refused to do so. And have you ever tried to get to the legal department of a large organization, much less a governmental one? If their number is not on the web, the stonewalling can be strong.

I thought we were here to help each other in matters related to travel and security and not to hide behind the log.

n4zhg

Keep dreaming. Look what hasn't happened to the DC cop who drew down on a snowball fight the other day.

sethb

That was yesterday. I wouldn't expect anything to happen that fast.

And besides, nobody was arrested, so who has standing to sue?

Trollkiller

Did he yell "FREEZE"?

ralfp

Maybe that's what the TSA needs to say to the dangerous liquids.

Maybe I could offer a freezing service before the checkpoint. A bomb-inerting service letting people immerse their dangerous water, etc. into liquid nitrogen to make the liquids safely solid.

pmocek

Lots of questions for Seargent Scott follow. No information about my experience at ABQ is provided.

Do you know of any law that requires Americans to carry documentation of identity with them while traveling within the country, much less to present it upon demand? If so, please cite it.

Do you equate failure to present documentation of identity with refusal to identify oneself?

To identify oneself is to communicate one's identity, is it not? I don't understand how the context matters in these cases. Also, you didn't describe ordering or even asking someone to identify himself to you in your hypothetical situations. Do you mean to suggest that there are situations in which people are required to identify themselves or to present documentation of their identities simply upon encountering a police officer?

You can ask anyone to do anything for any reason or for no reason at all (as can I), so what was the point of your first sentence? Also, why would you arrest someone for trespassing when he was not told/ordered/directed to leave and he was not informed that he was not allowed to be there?

Could you please clarify what you mean when you write, "ID"? Do you mean identification? That's a process, not something that can be given to you. Do you mean documentation of identity? I asked you above to cite a law that requires us to carry or present such paperwork. (I don't believe that there is one.) Do you mean identity? If so, then it seems that a name would always be sufficient. Could you tell us some more about your beliefs about what requirements are placed on people in so-called stop-and-identify states? What more than communicating his name could, in your opinion, someone be required to do as part of the process of identifying himself to a police officer?

Anyone can ask anything of anyone. What's your point?

What did you mean by "tussling with the police and getting yourself arrested"? Whether we are arrested or not is completely up to police, not to those of us who might be arrested. It seems that you're saying that photographing public areas of airports is "tussling with the police" and that doing so can reasonably be assumed to lead to criminal record, stress, time away from family and friends, large financial burden, and having one's name "plastered over everything". Do you think so?

Do you support restriction of people's freedom of movement based on blacklists? Do agree that such is the primary purpose of TSA's policy of requiring people to identify themselves and wait for permission to proceed after being stopped at a TSA barricade in an airport?

Anyone who hasn't already read it should see "What's wrong with showing ID?" from the Identity Project. SgtScott31, I'd like to hear any refutation of assertions made in that essay you have. It's hard for me to believe that after all the discussion you've seen here you truly believe that the 10-second hassle you described is what causes I and others to dislike TSA's airport passenger identification policies.

That's all you're assuming? Of course I may have done so. Who wouldn't assume that? I assume you may have refused to show documentation of your identity to someone last week. Did you mean to write that you assume that I did refuse to show documentation of my identity to a law enforcement officer? If so, do you think that the crime of concealing identity is refusal to present such paperwork?

Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that anyone can be charged with obstruction (or anything else) under the laws of your jurisdiction. A charge is not a conviction; it's simply an allegation made by a police officer, right?

Are you saying that failure to identify oneself when one is being detained for an investigation or when/after one has been arrested constitutes obstruction? Really? Could you please cite that law so we can read it?

You're saying that if you detain me or arrest me and I don't communicate my identity to you, that's obstruction, right? How long after you begin to detain me or arrest me do I have to identify myself to you before I have committed obstruction? Am I required to verbally identify myself, or may I write my name on a piece of paper for you? Does handing you a piece of pre-printed paper that clearly shows my name constitute identifying myself to you? How can I know whether I'm being detained for an investigation or for some other reason? How can I know when I'm being detained? People often have to ask if they're being detained in order to find out. How could they ensure their compliance with this law that you claim exists without immediately identifying themselves to every police officer they encounter?

Can you tell us what obstruction means?

KTW

DANG pmocek! They will never find all his pieces. ^

Trollkiller

pmocek The only law I know of that requires you to show ID when you travel is the Secure Flight law. That law requires you to show ID ONLY to the covered aircraft operator.

Boggie Dog

Are the aircraft operators acting as an agent of the government since they are assisting in list checking at that point?

sethb

Which section? The only stuff I could find referred to the airline providing pre-screening information to the TSA.

yyzvoyageur

Do you really think that when he said "we can ask you to leave" he meant he gets down on his knees and says "pretty please" with a coy smile?

DeaconFlyer

Phil:

No offense, but isn't there a better use of your time than picking apart the statements of a lowly sergent (sorry Scott). He has no authority to change airport policy.

It seems like your efforts would be better directed else where.

pmocek

I'm not sure which question that I posed to Mr. Scott you intended to answer, but I'd really like to hear his take on this, since he purports to be an expert on the matter. We're really looking for situations in which people are required to carry and present documentation of their identities when simply walking around inside the country. Mr. Scott seems to think that there are situations in which someone he encounters in the course of performing his duties as police officer is required to present documentation of identity. I assert that there is no such situation in the United States, but I'm not a law enforcement officer or legal expert, just a citizen who believes in understanding my rights and responsibilities.

No, I think he meant that he asks someone to do something. Police officers typically ask when they do not have the authority to demand. In many cases, people don't understand the difference. For example, "May I search your trunk?" "You don't mind if I search your car, do you?" In each of those cases, the officer is very likely attempting to fool the person into giving up his constitutional protection from unlawful search and seizure. If he had the right to search the person's belongings without consent, he would almost certainly do so without asking. For related information, please see the Flex Your Rights Foundation's police encounter FAQ.

Maybe so, but I enjoy the discussion, and if everyone challenged every cop who goes mouthing off in public about policies he doesn't understand that affect our ability to move about our country without interference from our government, we'd probably be more likely to maintain our freedom.

I don't want to live in a police state. It seems that Mr. Scott believes we are already living in a police state. I've invited him to explain himself in case I'm mistaken.

SgtScott31, I look forward to your responses.

docmonkey

Yes, I've been following the dialog and it seems like SgtScott31's original offer to put you in touch with the lawyers was indeed a disingenuous one. Too bad.

However, I'd be interested in hearing what they say if you talk to them.