Flyer “Processed” (Arrested?) in NM After Declining to Show ID
Dec 8, 2009, 9:07 am
#436
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I totally agree. If the government believes that someone has committed a crime, then that person should be arrested and tried for it. Restricting people's travel based on what the government thinks they might be planning to do in the future is reminiscent of "thought crime" in Orwell's 1984.
Bruce
Bruce
If they're merely mentally contemplating a crime, they haven't done anything illegal.
Dec 8, 2009, 9:11 am
#437
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By definition, that makes TSORon a suspected terrorist.
TSORon has stated that he believes that it is quite acceptable for Constitutional Rights of people to be violated if they're suspected terrorists.
Since TSORon is now a suspected terrorist, I ask him how he feels about having his rights violated for that reason.
I'm fairly certain that (if he responds) he's going to state that "suspected terrorist" should only apply to the peasantry, not to the high-and-mighty employees of TSA or other government agencies (though he won't word it quite that way), and that only the suspicions of the high-and-mighty matter, not those of the peasantry.
Dec 8, 2009, 9:13 am
#438
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If they're planning a crime, and any action has been taken towards committing it (even an action that by itself is quite legal, like buying a crowbar) and there's more than one person involved, they've committed the crime of conspiracy.
If they're merely mentally contemplating a crime, they haven't done anything illegal.
If they're merely mentally contemplating a crime, they haven't done anything illegal.
Unfortunately, in the "current Post 9/11 Environment", silly little things like the law don't seem to matter to our government.
Dec 8, 2009, 9:30 am
#439
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: USA
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I totally agree. If the government believes that someone has committed a crime, then that person should be arrested and tried for it. Restricting people's travel based on what the government thinks they might be planning to do in the future is reminiscent of "thought crime" in Orwell's 1984.
If they're merely mentally contemplating a crime, they haven't done anything illegal.
This Homeland Security blacklisting -- the primary reason for TSA's airport ID check -- is extra-judicial punishment. We're punishing people based on accusations. Before the blacklists were implemented, we already had processes to restrict the movement of people based on a judge's ruling. The blacklisting simply allows our executive branch of government to sidestep the judicial branch, handing out punishment -- for any reason they like or no reason at all -- without the involvement of a judge or jury. If you believe that America should be as this nation's founders intended, Homeland Security's blacklisting is wholly un-American.
Quoting the Identity Project's "What's Wrong With Showing ID?" page:
Honest people [...] go to Pro-Life rallies. Honest people go to Pro-Choice rallies, too. Honest people attend gun shows. Honest people protest the actions of the President of the United States. Honest people fly to political conventions. What if those with the power to put people on a 'no fly' list decided that they didn't like the reason for which you wanted to travel? The honest people wouldn't be going anywhere.
[...]
Another program which depends on showing ID is the Watch List and No-Fly List. Airlines are issued these secret lists by the federal government and are required to request ID from their passengers in order to check them against the secret lists. This has resulted in countless citizens with names similar to bad people being harassed, arrested, or prevented from traveling by aircraft including every person named 'David Nelson'.
Much has been done to make travel by air safer. Cockpit doors have been secured, pilots are armed, and Air Marshals patrol airplane cabins. Increased physical security at airports has dramatically increased the safety of our nation's skies. Above all, the mindset of the flying public has also changed: no longer will passengers remain passive in the event of a skyjacking.
The demand for ID does nothing for security while making honest Americans less free.
Every government that has imposed totalitarian rules told its populace that it was doing so to "uphold freedom" or "improve the security of the homeland" or "root out terrorists and subversives." These ends do not justify unconstitutional means. We uphold freedom by exercising it – not by restricting it.
Using this country's transportation system to conduct a dragnet, using government secret lists of wanted people, degrades our freedom and makes people less inclined to voice their opinion for fear of ending up on these secret lists. While the present administration may have benevolent intentions to justify their actions, our future is imperiled by this wholly un-American activity.
[...]
Another program which depends on showing ID is the Watch List and No-Fly List. Airlines are issued these secret lists by the federal government and are required to request ID from their passengers in order to check them against the secret lists. This has resulted in countless citizens with names similar to bad people being harassed, arrested, or prevented from traveling by aircraft including every person named 'David Nelson'.
Much has been done to make travel by air safer. Cockpit doors have been secured, pilots are armed, and Air Marshals patrol airplane cabins. Increased physical security at airports has dramatically increased the safety of our nation's skies. Above all, the mindset of the flying public has also changed: no longer will passengers remain passive in the event of a skyjacking.
The demand for ID does nothing for security while making honest Americans less free.
Every government that has imposed totalitarian rules told its populace that it was doing so to "uphold freedom" or "improve the security of the homeland" or "root out terrorists and subversives." These ends do not justify unconstitutional means. We uphold freedom by exercising it – not by restricting it.
Using this country's transportation system to conduct a dragnet, using government secret lists of wanted people, degrades our freedom and makes people less inclined to voice their opinion for fear of ending up on these secret lists. While the present administration may have benevolent intentions to justify their actions, our future is imperiled by this wholly un-American activity.
Last edited by pmocek; Dec 8, 2009 at 9:39 am Reason: note reasoning behind blacklisting, extra-judicial punishment, etc.
Dec 8, 2009, 10:02 am
#440
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Exactly the opposite. I'm pointing out that it makes no sense to do so, by "suspecting" anybody who believes it does. That puts them on the "loss of rights" side of their own argument, and sometimes (albeit rarely) convinces them to consider their position using logic (which leads to changing it).
Dec 8, 2009, 10:23 am
#441
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True, but fortunately the Republicans are in the minority so it's unlikely that any of their legislation will get passed.
Dec 8, 2009, 11:02 am
#442
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This Homeland Security blacklisting -- the primary reason for TSA's airport ID check -- is extra-judicial punishment. We're punishing people based on accusations. Before the blacklists were implemented, we already had processes to restrict the movement of people based on a judge's ruling. The blacklisting simply allows our executive branch of government to sidestep the judicial branch, handing out punishment -- for any reason they like or no reason at all -- without the involvement of a judge or jury. If you believe that America should be as this nation's founders intended, Homeland Security's blacklisting is wholly un-American.
Bruce
Dec 8, 2009, 11:28 am
#443
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Dec 8, 2009, 3:25 pm
#446
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Good for Phil!!!!! Yes, TK, this could get very interesting. Phil hit all sorts of hot buttons at once. I admire him.
If you read Sherri's blog a little further you will see that apparently her doctor's office is requiring a photo ID each and every time a patient comes in for a visit - in compliance with some FTC rule, allegedly designed to stop identity theft. Seems to me the more often one is required to have one's ID available for review and scanning, the greater the chance of having one's identity stolen.
Photo ID to see doctor
If you read Sherri's blog a little further you will see that apparently her doctor's office is requiring a photo ID each and every time a patient comes in for a visit - in compliance with some FTC rule, allegedly designed to stop identity theft. Seems to me the more often one is required to have one's ID available for review and scanning, the greater the chance of having one's identity stolen.
Photo ID to see doctor
Dec 8, 2009, 5:21 pm
#447
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There's also an issue with confidentiality of medical records under HIPAA. No doctor wants to discuss medical history with someone who may not be the patient. That can be a serious crime.
Bruce
Bruce
Dec 8, 2009, 6:43 pm
#448
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 230
It is now a Federal Law and within it is given the right to request a picture ID. I used my library card once and then my work ID, both have pictures. The reception gal asked for a DL, and I handed her my library card and she never said a word (guess she didn't know the difference).
Dec 9, 2009, 7:34 pm
#449
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Library card
Right on the money, my wife works in a hospital and this is all about HIPPA confidentiality.
It is now a Federal Law and within it is given the right to request a picture ID. I used my library card once and then my work ID, both have pictures. The reception gal asked for a DL, and I handed her my library card and she never said a word (guess she didn't know the difference).
It is now a Federal Law and within it is given the right to request a picture ID. I used my library card once and then my work ID, both have pictures. The reception gal asked for a DL, and I handed her my library card and she never said a word (guess she didn't know the difference).
Dec 11, 2009, 8:39 pm
#450
Join Date: Jun 2008
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As far as your case Phil, I don't know the specific circumstances and I'm sure you can't elaborate, but many will be paying attention the court hearing coming up in Feb. I just hope the thousands of dollars being shelled out by you and others is worth it.
Actually I'm surprised I haven't seen the recent cases here on FT where searches and subsequent arrests have been thrown out due to TSA overstepping the administrative search, or maybe I didn't go through enough of the threads.