Sep 6, 2019, 8:04 am
Last edit by: StartinSanDiego
Chase Shut Down thread: (Archived version found here: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase-ultimate-rewards/1526572-chase-closed-my-credit-card-account-s-consolidated.html]
There is a general Shut Down thread in the Manufactured Spend forum, found here: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1948543-2019-shutdown-thread.html
If you feel your account has been unfairly closed, consider filing a complaint with the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau:
CFPB's complaint form: http://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
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What happened?
When someone reports an account closure here, people are curious as to both the background on the Chase relationship and any/all potential shut down triggers. Please answer any relevant questions to give details. This could help figure out what happened or how you could proceed:
There is a general Shut Down thread in the Manufactured Spend forum, found here: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/manufactured-spending/1948543-2019-shutdown-thread.html
If you feel your account has been unfairly closed, consider filing a complaint with the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau:
CFPB's complaint form: http://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What happened?
When someone reports an account closure here, people are curious as to both the background on the Chase relationship and any/all potential shut down triggers. Please answer any relevant questions to give details. This could help figure out what happened or how you could proceed:
- Background: Do you have both Credit Cards and Banking accounts with Chase? Tell us your history at Chase. What do you feel the trigger could have been? Does anything unusual (from the bankers perspective) go on in your accounts? How long have you had a banking relationship with Chase? Please explain.
- Ultimate Rewards: Did you transfer UR points to someone with a different address? Different last names? Did you sell UR points to someone?
- Potentially suspicious activities: Do you use multiple sources to pay your credit card bills, such as Walmart Bill Pay? Do you ACH using multiple accounts? Did you recently wire transfer large amounts into or out of your Chase accounts?
- Bonus Earnings: Approximately what percentage of your charges earned less than 5x points in the past 12 months?
- Other possible Triggers:
- Did a Chase or non-Chase bank recently close one of your credit cards?
- Are you using up a large percentage of your credit line or cycling the credit lines on all Chase and non-Chase credit cards?
- Is your total credit line with Chase much higher than with other banks?
- Did you apply for many credit cards or other forms of credit recently? Has your credit score or credit profile changed recently? As in: significantly more debt, more open credit lines, or a large drop in your credit score? Do you mimic a "bust out" profile? (Someone maxing out credit prior to filing bankruptcy)
- If you have a Chase checking account how much did you typically deposit in money orders per month, if any?
- Did you recently start spending a lot more with Chase than in typical months?
- Is your monthly balance frequently close to your credit limit?
- Did you abuse the Chase Refer a Friend system?
- Did you use/abuse Chase's new checking/savings sign up bonus incentives?
- Did you bounce a check for a credit card payment?
- DId someone at your address get shut down also?
- Do you have a Chase mortgage or other accounts at Chase? Are they in good standing?
- Did you dispute or return items on your credit cards? How many times?
- Have you recently needed back office help on your accounts, which may have triggered a review or called attention to something?
Chase Shut Downs & Credit-Card Account Closures: Data, Tales & Speculation 2019-on
Jun 18, 2019, 7:04 am
#46
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 3
Reply
It seems like it was the large ACH transfers that triggered everything. There was a somewhat connected report on about people having their Chase accounts locked when using ACH to fund their accounts. While this is not the same situation here, in the post it mentions that large ACH transactions seem to trigger a security risk alert on Chase's end. Once the ACH transfers triggered the security alert for your accounts, everything else (large giftcard purchases) probably didn't help. The second indicator that this was indeed the cause are the letters you received with one closing your banking accounts and the cc shutdown letter stating that they were closed because their affiliate (banking side) terminated their relationship with you; so once the banking side shut you down the cc's followed.
Yeah I was kinda thinking the banking side due to the letter as well but I saw some other posts of people doing the MS on the chase ink and they had the same letter atleast on Points guy.
the letter was same as mine. I don’t know know why getting a large ACH from another bank account is a red flag when that’s how I get my sales. I had been doing the Chase Ink 5 times gift card thing for years to be honest and never any issues. Hell they raised the credit limit to 35k on the card just recently without me asking for the raise. I had previously got ACH from this customer for a few years but recently stepped up the sales to this customer. Have also got Large ACH from PayPal and Amazon for years as well. Bottom line is DONT bank at chase if you are going to have any activity in your account beyond Direct deposit and normal expenses. I can’t really say without certainty what it was that shut me down. Could of been combination of Large ACH and Large gift card purchases all at same time and this was looked at as potential ML and they will shut accounts down for that very quickly. I never put or withdrew cash from this account for the last 5 years. My new business bank account will not be at any bank that provides credit cards that are worth anything... it’s not really the end of the world as I have prolly got over 30k worth of rewards from chase over the years. I have 1.3 million of chase points I am being forced to transfer or liquidate now. The only thing that sucks is that I won’t have access to UR or Southwest, United, or HyAtt in the future or any of chase lucrative signup bonuses on so many of their cards.
Jun 20, 2019, 3:44 am
#47
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: Hilton Diamond, Starwood Platinum, AA, SW, Delta
Posts: 885
I think it is gift card, since it is business account it is not uncommon to have large ach transfer. These are from amazon and paypal. The gift card they saw as risk as they don't know what purpose that will serve
Jun 20, 2019, 8:57 am
#48
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,740
@AZflippinbro,
The sudden jump on ACH either in frequency or in aggregated amount, from a new vendor (i.e. no history of the source in the past and the vendor is not verifiable thru D&B etc, with sudden high frequency / amount) is what causes you the trouble.
Bank side shuts you down first that almost inevitably would shut down the card side, GC purchase or not really is just after thought guess.
Once again, people need to realize that Chase is compliance paranoid. Anything on the bank side that remotely looks like AML, regardless it is a personal or business account would trigger manual review to determine the risk level. If Chase values you, someone would call first to find out what the gist is before the axe is laid. At least that WAS how it was handled 3 years ago, even on personal checking account that started receiving regular ACHs.
The sudden jump on ACH either in frequency or in aggregated amount, from a new vendor (i.e. no history of the source in the past and the vendor is not verifiable thru D&B etc, with sudden high frequency / amount) is what causes you the trouble.
Bank side shuts you down first that almost inevitably would shut down the card side, GC purchase or not really is just after thought guess.
Once again, people need to realize that Chase is compliance paranoid. Anything on the bank side that remotely looks like AML, regardless it is a personal or business account would trigger manual review to determine the risk level. If Chase values you, someone would call first to find out what the gist is before the axe is laid. At least that WAS how it was handled 3 years ago, even on personal checking account that started receiving regular ACHs.
Jun 20, 2019, 9:09 am
#49
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 3
Banned from chase
@AZflippinbro,
The sudden jump on ACH either in frequency or in aggregated amount, from a new vendor (i.e. no history of the source in the past and the vendor is not verifiable thru D&B etc, with sudden high frequency / amount) is what causes you the trouble.
Bank side shuts you down first that almost inevitably would shut down the card side, GC purchase or not really is just after thought guess.
Once again, people need to realize that Chase is compliance paranoid. Anything on the bank side that remotely looks like AML, regardless it is a personal or business account would trigger manual review to determine the risk level. If Chase values you, someone would call first to find out what the gist is before the axe is laid. At least that WAS how it was handled 3 years ago, even on personal checking account that started receiving regular ACHs.
The sudden jump on ACH either in frequency or in aggregated amount, from a new vendor (i.e. no history of the source in the past and the vendor is not verifiable thru D&B etc, with sudden high frequency / amount) is what causes you the trouble.
Bank side shuts you down first that almost inevitably would shut down the card side, GC purchase or not really is just after thought guess.
Once again, people need to realize that Chase is compliance paranoid. Anything on the bank side that remotely looks like AML, regardless it is a personal or business account would trigger manual review to determine the risk level. If Chase values you, someone would call first to find out what the gist is before the axe is laid. At least that WAS how it was handled 3 years ago, even on personal checking account that started receiving regular ACHs.
this customer i had received plenty of ACH deposits from previously but the amount and frequency recently increased but it’s a business account I’m doing more legal business with this customer so that’s why I’m just confused. I also had a few wires I sent to a friends personal bank account as they needed short term money for a margin call. This wire came back for around the same amount plus a fee a few days later. This also corresponded with me increasing my gift card spend on the chase INK as I would cash these in to buy inventory that I sell and get my money back.
Last edited by AZflippinbro; Jun 20, 2019 at 9:19 am Reason: Reply
Jun 21, 2019, 12:58 am
#52
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 144
chase suspended my accounts due to large ach transfers but all they had to do was do a 3 way call with the other bank and have them verify i was the account owner and all was good. makes no sense for a bank to close down someones accounts for that without any chance to verify ownership of the funds
Jun 21, 2019, 10:10 am
#53
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Miami, Florida
Programs: AA ExPlat, Hyatt Globalist, IHG Spire, Hilton Gold
Posts: 4,009
Highly unlikely it was anything but the gift cards. It’s one thing for Chase to dislike frequent large cash deposits, but it makes no sense that verifiable bank transfers would cause a problem.
Jun 22, 2019, 12:18 am
#54
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 539
I don't believe that there's a need to speculate or assert that it was the gift cards when the facts outlined by OP show that: first shutdown happened on the banking side which has no connection to the gift card transactions on the cc side; the cc's were shutdown b/c OP was shutdown by the banking side (the letter states this much instead of saying something along the lines of unsatisfactory relationship); OP mentioned that there was a pretty consistent pattern of behavior in terms of buying giftcards for 2-3 years without any issues; and, we also know that Chase is very risk adverse on the compliance side when it comes to banking transactions. We also now know that in addition to the new/high amounts of ACH transfers, OP also mentioned this:
Now, I'm not passing judgement on OP for any of this, but one can see how this new pattern of banking transactions probably triggered a security review with the outcome being that Chase decided to just terminate the banking relationship (it wasn't just ACH transfers). This is not a liking issue, but compliance issues with ML laws on the banking side, which are no joke as the bank incurs liability if it fails to maintain programs to prevent against ML. I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but Chase probably has a prevention program in place with tolerance levels set very low in order to take no chances.
Buying gift cards, while they may create profitability issues because of the increased rewards, does not create any compliance issues/security concerns for the banking side. The first domino fell on the banking side, and the cc side just followed suit (they probably have an automatic notification system that lets the cc side know when someone is shut down by the banking side).
I also had a few wires I sent to a friends personal bank account as they needed short term money for a margin call. This wire came back for around the same amount plus a fee a few days later.
Buying gift cards, while they may create profitability issues because of the increased rewards, does not create any compliance issues/security concerns for the banking side. The first domino fell on the banking side, and the cc side just followed suit (they probably have an automatic notification system that lets the cc side know when someone is shut down by the banking side).
Jun 22, 2019, 12:43 am
#55
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: Hilton Diamond, Starwood Platinum, AA, SW, Delta
Posts: 885
I don't believe that there's a need to speculate or assert that it was the gift cards when the facts outlined by OP show that: first shutdown happened on the banking side which has no connection to the gift card transactions on the cc side; the cc's were shutdown b/c OP was shutdown by the banking side (the letter states this much instead of saying something along the lines of unsatisfactory relationship); OP mentioned that there was a pretty consistent pattern of behavior in terms of buying giftcards for 2-3 years without any issues; and, we also know that Chase is very risk adverse on the compliance side when it comes to banking transactions. We also now know that in addition to the new/high amounts of ACH transfers, OP also mentioned this:
Now, I'm not passing judgement on OP for any of this, but one can see how this new pattern of banking transactions probably triggered a security review with the outcome being that Chase decided to just terminate the banking relationship (it wasn't just ACH transfers). This is not a liking issue, but compliance issues with ML laws on the banking side, which are no joke as the bank incurs liability if it fails to maintain programs to prevent against ML. I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but Chase probably has a prevention program in place with tolerance levels set very low in order to take no chances.
Buying gift cards, while they may create profitability issues because of the increased rewards, does not create any compliance issues/security concerns for the banking side. The first domino fell on the banking side, and the cc side just followed suit (they probably have an automatic notification system that lets the cc side know when someone is shut down by the banking side).
Now, I'm not passing judgement on OP for any of this, but one can see how this new pattern of banking transactions probably triggered a security review with the outcome being that Chase decided to just terminate the banking relationship (it wasn't just ACH transfers). This is not a liking issue, but compliance issues with ML laws on the banking side, which are no joke as the bank incurs liability if it fails to maintain programs to prevent against ML. I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but Chase probably has a prevention program in place with tolerance levels set very low in order to take no chances.
Buying gift cards, while they may create profitability issues because of the increased rewards, does not create any compliance issues/security concerns for the banking side. The first domino fell on the banking side, and the cc side just followed suit (they probably have an automatic notification system that lets the cc side know when someone is shut down by the banking side).
Jun 22, 2019, 2:09 am
#56
Join Date: Jul 2005
Programs: Hilton Diamond, Starwood Platinum, AA, SW, Delta
Posts: 885
Are chase shutdowns becoming more rare? I used to see more in 2018 but in 2019 i see less. I have 20 cards in past 24 months and was wondering if it was worth it to get a chase card since i saw a preapproval. my last chase card approved was 2 months ago and now i am applying for business ink
Jun 22, 2019, 8:54 pm
#57
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,740
I don't believe that there's a need to speculate or assert that it was the gift cards when the facts outlined by OP show that: first shutdown happened on the banking side which has no connection to the gift card transactions on the cc side; the cc's were shutdown b/c OP was shutdown by the banking side (the letter states this much instead of saying something along the lines of unsatisfactory relationship); OP mentioned that there was a pretty consistent pattern of behavior in terms of buying giftcards for 2-3 years without any issues; and, we also know that Chase is very risk adverse on the compliance side when it comes to banking transactions. We also now know that in addition to the new/high amounts of ACH transfers, OP also mentioned this:
Now, I'm not passing judgement on OP for any of this, but one can see how this new pattern of banking transactions probably triggered a security review with the outcome being that Chase decided to just terminate the banking relationship (it wasn't just ACH transfers). This is not a liking issue, but compliance issues with ML laws on the banking side, which are no joke as the bank incurs liability if it fails to maintain programs to prevent against ML. I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but Chase probably has a prevention program in place with tolerance levels set very low in order to take no chances.
Buying gift cards, while they may create profitability issues because of the increased rewards, does not create any compliance issues/security concerns for the banking side. The first domino fell on the banking side, and the cc side just followed suit (they probably have an automatic notification system that lets the cc side know when someone is shut down by the banking side).
Now, I'm not passing judgement on OP for any of this, but one can see how this new pattern of banking transactions probably triggered a security review with the outcome being that Chase decided to just terminate the banking relationship (it wasn't just ACH transfers). This is not a liking issue, but compliance issues with ML laws on the banking side, which are no joke as the bank incurs liability if it fails to maintain programs to prevent against ML. I'm not saying that this is what's happening here, but Chase probably has a prevention program in place with tolerance levels set very low in order to take no chances.
Buying gift cards, while they may create profitability issues because of the increased rewards, does not create any compliance issues/security concerns for the banking side. The first domino fell on the banking side, and the cc side just followed suit (they probably have an automatic notification system that lets the cc side know when someone is shut down by the banking side).
The fact remains the bank side was shut down first and then it led to the shut down on the card side.
But you will never make those who think buying gift cards for whatever underlying reason is. They are blind to all other elements.
The new additional info OP mentioned about the ACH to a friend who paid him back in only a few days with similar amount plus a fee which probably made no meaningful difference to the original ACHed out amount - and that was caught by the system and then led to manual review.
I can personally attest that Chase system would flag an account when the account has very similar amount wired in and out within very short span of time. - but In the distant past Chase called first to seek an explanation. It probably is also depending on the bank officer who review the account.
In in fact Fidelity called me once to ask for explanation on similar situation even on just a few hundreds transaction with all 3 accounts involved have same ownership - our own accounts. Fido told me while they can put a note in our account so each time the system flagged it, the reviewing officer can see the note but it can get to a point that it becomes a nuisance to them... Bottom line either don't do it or make it NOT to have the look of ML so would not trigger a review.
Jun 22, 2019, 9:23 pm
#58
Suspended
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Miami, Florida
Programs: AA ExPlat, Hyatt Globalist, IHG Spire, Hilton Gold
Posts: 4,009
That's silly. The gift cards were the likely culprit based on the first post. It was only later that there was any mention of wire transfers. As always with these situations, there was more to the story.
It's also silly as a general matter, since we know for an absolute fact that people have been shut down for MS, both by Chase and by other issuers.
It's also silly as a general matter, since we know for an absolute fact that people have been shut down for MS, both by Chase and by other issuers.
Jun 22, 2019, 10:38 pm
#59
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Upper Sternistan
Posts: 10,028
The gospel has long been, if you want to preserve your credit card relationships with Chase, don't have deposit accounts with Chase.
We'll never know the specific reason here, but this recent experience suggests this thinking has merit.
We'll never know the specific reason here, but this recent experience suggests this thinking has merit.
Jun 22, 2019, 10:43 pm
#60
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: ZOA, SFO, HKG
Programs: UA 1K 0.9MM, Marriott Gold, HHonors Gold, Hertz PC, SBux Gold, TSA Pre✓
Posts: 13,811
FWIW - Chase always has bonus promotions on its deposit products. There is literally no point keeping an account at Chase.