Chase UR points value vs Amex MR?

Old Apr 21, 2018, 11:12 am
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Diplomatico
....
Presuming you would have paid the $225/night to stay there anyway, the 10,000 UR points that you transfer to Hyatt to redeem are worth 2.25 cpp.....
Not exactly. When I pay with money I receive both a flight or room -and- a discount on future travel, in the form of rewards both from the loyalty program and the credit card issuer. When I redeem points I only receive a flight or room. The value is always less than the price divided by the number of miles or points redeemed. The formula needs to be refined to account for the rewards that would have been earned if paying with money. This is straightforward if you are familiar with the loyalty program. The calculation will be different depending on the credit card I would use to pay, and my elite status in the program. There is no way that a blogger can accurately calculate my value for Ultimate Rewards points, but they can provide an indication of the relative value of various loyalty programs. The question isn't why do they value points at $0.0xy, but rather why do they value one program higher or lower than another. Focus on the comparison, not the numbers which convey a false sense of precision.

Last edited by mia; Apr 21, 2018 at 12:51 pm
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Old Apr 21, 2018, 12:39 pm
  #47  
 
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Originally Posted by Super Mario
The best way to get a "valuation" is to figure out how you would use them. Are you going to transfer to Delta? Hyatt? None of the above? Don't let the internet tell you what they are worth, by basing their number off of a few transfer partners and redemptions that you will never use. In my scenario, I don't care if I can get business first class for 5 cents a point. I consider my points to be like my money. I wouldn't buy that flight because of a "valuation" unless it was a crazy deal.

I believe on average, the two cards are a lot closer than we think. Add in the insurance for the CSR, and that's another important factor. I couldn't imagine booking premium flight options without insuring them.
That's a good point that I do not think is shared enough.

Personally, I DO enjoy traveling in business class (for long-haul) and I transfer my UR and MR points for premium redemptions. That said, I totally understand if someone doesn't care to spend the extra points/cash on premium, or maybe they only travel on short-haul flights where I think it makes way less sense to fly premium unless you have so many points/money it doesn't matter (but I doubt we'd be all over this message board if we were in that category) or the deal is costing barely more than economy.

Last edited by jiaogulan; Apr 21, 2018 at 12:48 pm Reason: typo
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Old Apr 21, 2018, 1:35 pm
  #48  
 
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Originally Posted by conde
One can accumulate Hyatt points through stays and also the Hyatt CC. The Hyatt CC offers a competitive if not superior value proposition to the Chase Sapphire Reserve and other UR earning channels if redeeming for Hyatt. The Hyatt CC's annual Cat 4 free night cert, free Discoverist status, and MLife Pearl match (I am Explorist without the card, however the Hyatt card's status provides that additional value) more than makes up for better bonus earn on the Chase Sapphire Reserve. I have no desire to utilize any other of the Ultimate Rewards transfer partners.
I can't disagree with your assessment of your situation. Value can be extracted from the Hyatt CC or any other card but that's not the subject of this thread/side discussion - subject is UR value.

Also, holding a UR earning card slightly changes the value proposition of holding the Hyatt CC (ot sure if it even does but I suppose a case can be made).

The value of a flexible currency still lies in the redemption ability in the underlying partners. On a basis to state universal value, at best I would value the flexible currency at the value of the highest rated partner. To be conservative, perhaps the value could be aggregated. I would never rate the flexible currency's value higher than any single transfer partner because that redemption value would never be realized. In the case of Ultimate Rewards, I don't see the rationale to rate the value at ~2.1~2.2 cents per point. I would rate UR ~1.8 cents per point, about the same as I value Membership Rewards.
Oddly, your valuation of UR at ~1.8 is greater than your valuation of Hyatt at 1.6-1.7 despite your statement that you value the UR at the value of the highest rated partner, which in your case is Hyatt since you have no desire to transfer elsewhere.

Last edited by Troopers; Apr 21, 2018 at 1:45 pm
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Old Apr 21, 2018, 2:32 pm
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Originally Posted by Troopers
I can't disagree with your assessment of your situation. Value can be extracted from the Hyatt CC or any other card but that's not the subject of this thread/side discussion - subject is UR value.

Also, holding a UR earning card slightly changes the value proposition of holding the Hyatt CC (ot sure if it even does but I suppose a case can be made).



Oddly, your valuation of UR at ~1.8 is greater than your valuation of Hyatt at 1.6-1.7 despite your statement that you value the UR at the value of the highest rated partner, which in your case is Hyatt since you have no desire to transfer elsewhere.
In regards to my non-UR Hyatt points accumulation, you had previously commented "I don't understand the logic as UR earning ability is much higher." in response to my comments about accumulating points for Hyatt, which is a UR transfer partner. Hyatt points valuation is relevant to the UR valuation discussion.

When asked how I would value flexible points currencies, I was not accounting for the valuations of bloggers. For my airline redemptions, I go for business or first class international flights.

My rationale for UR (and Membership Rewards) valuation at $.018 per point....As of today, I can buy Starpoints at $.02275 per Starpoint (20000 Starpoints for $455). With a 5000 point bump to 25000 airline transfer points, that comes to a value of $.0182. Starpoints can be transferred to many airlines. As cash prices for RT tickets can be very high for business or first class flights, I use the miles purchase price for valuation. I believe this valuation to be reasonable. Both UR and Membership Rewards have valued airline partners such as Korean Airlines or ANA. Basically the UR or Membership Rewards would be an opportunity cost as opposed to buying miles.

Airline points/miles are complex to value. Much too complex for one post on this forum.

Here are some of my takes...For economy class tickets, it is best to use the fare price rather than the cost of miles via purchase to factor point value (always use the lower value of the two). For airlines which require many more miles for a redemption than others, their point valuations should take a haircut. Factor in fuel surcharges, points expiration risk, airline default risk (Air Berlin points anyone?), saver mile availability, qualitative differences...
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Old Apr 21, 2018, 3:36 pm
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There is no UR or MR what is better

it is all about what your travel/ preferences/ airlines/ .... are

if you fly an airline and one program doesnt transfer to that program it is useless.
if you are opportunistic and fly anywhere for the best points value use both.
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Old Apr 21, 2018, 4:30 pm
  #51  
 
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Originally Posted by blitzen
There is no UR or MR what is better

it is all about what your travel/ preferences/ airlines/ .... are

if you fly an airline and one program doesn’t transfer to that program it is useless.
if you are opportunistic and fly anywhere for the best points value use both.
Also, both have excellent sign-up bonuses on cards so unless you are not able to do very basic card acquisition for bonuses (not even calling this churning) or you MUST have UR's for Hyatt or United or something, then just do both, get the bonuses, and when you are not doing minimum spend for bonuses anymore then focus your spending on one guided by what maximizes your bonus category spending.

Hedge your bets, have both, do Chase first, both are excellent programs, blah blah. Let's not over-complicate things.
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Old Apr 21, 2018, 6:57 pm
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Originally Posted by mia
Not exactly. When I pay with money I receive both a flight or room -and- a discount on future travel, in the form of rewards both from the loyalty program and the credit card issuer. When I redeem points I only receive a flight or room. The value is always less than the price divided by the number of miles or points redeemed. The formula needs to be refined to account for the rewards that would have been earned if paying with money. This is straightforward if you are familiar with the loyalty program. The calculation will be different depending on the credit card I would use to pay, and my elite status in the program. There is no way that a blogger can accurately calculate my value for Ultimate Rewards points, but they can provide an indication of the relative value of various loyalty programs. The question isn't why do they value points at $0.0xy, but rather why do they value one program higher or lower than another. Focus on the comparison, not the numbers which convey a false sense of precision.
I'm sorry I even entered into this discussion. I was trying to answer someone's question and that question was "It appears people claim to redeem UR for 2 cents per. But I'm trying to understand how that is possible on transfers."

I mistakenly presumed the poster meant reports from generic internet posters who post about redeeming for fantastic redemption values. My explanation was intended to explain why those people are posting those values, e.g., the Hyatt Zilara example.

I don't care what bloggers think a point is worth and, quite frankly, I think the entire discussion is an exercise in overthinking.
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Last edited by Diplomatico; May 3, 2018 at 5:24 pm
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Old Apr 21, 2018, 8:06 pm
  #53  
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Originally Posted by conde
As of today, I can buy Starpoints at $.02275 per Starpoint (20000 Starpoints for $455). With a 5000 point bump to 25000 airline transfer points, that comes to a value of $.0182. Starpoints can be transferred to many airlines.
It should be mentioned, though, that Starpoints as such will cease to exist on Aug 1. They'll turn (at 1:3) into new merged Marriott/Ritz/Starwood program points (valued much like Marriott's points of today), but the airline redemption rates will be different, so it won't be the "gold standard" for transfer to airline any more necessarily after Aug 1.
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Old Apr 22, 2018, 1:58 am
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Originally Posted by sdsearch
It should be mentioned, though, that Starpoints as such will cease to exist on Aug 1. They'll turn (at 1:3) into new merged Marriott/Ritz/Starwood program points (valued much like Marriott's points of today), but the airline redemption rates will be different, so it won't be the "gold standard" for transfer to airline any more necessarily after Aug 1.
Yes, the Starpoint program will be merged into the Marriott Loyalty program on August 1 at the ratios which were disclosed this week. For points purchases after August 1, the Marriott/SPG points purchase price will be TBD. At that time, the valuation will likely need to be adjusted accordingly. Other points purchase channels for airlines selling miles (from points.com, for example) can also be considered to help determine the public price of points for sale from various airline transfer partners.
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Old Apr 22, 2018, 2:59 pm
  #55  
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To Summarize:
Most of us keep the following cards in our wallet: Chase Reserve + Amex Platinum as our keeper. Disposable cards throughout the year tend to be "Chase Marriot, Freedom, Freedom Unlimited, Amex SPG, Barclay Aviator etc" - you transfer all your UR points to your reserve card and close the others (that have a yearly fee), as for SPG, marriot, and others you have to use their freebee perks that year or carry forward and pay the annual fee.

All year round I stay with Hilton Hotels (Diamond status via CC), Avis (transfer to AA, not car points, Avis sucks for loyalty will be ditching them next year), and AA ( may be close to Executive Platinum).

So what's the end game? Since AA has no partner with Amex nor UR points, I'm out of luck. But I just want to take the family to a vacation overseas, so my allegiance to AA is null if my purpose is to get the best bang for the buck via credit card points.

Finally what I've learnt here:
UR Points: For Hyatt hotel
UR points: Delta (never flown with them, but then again there's no AA with chase so I'm stuck with Delta to get overseas)
Amex Plat: Again no AA. Anyone know which airline Amex gives highest transfer partner to overseas?

Moral of the story: Looks like I'll stick with UR due to peace of mind, even though Amex MR have higher rates per cent. Reason being: when the time comes to book flights more people like TPG are biased to Chase so its easier to research deals. For example: I learnt in this thread to book with Hyatt and Delta using if I ever decide to redeem my UR points. As for Amex Plat - that's still up in the air on what to do with all those points.

Question: Since AA is being stingent on acquiring partnerships with Chase/Amex - would you recommend I change to Delta next year and demand elite status match? If that were to happen, then yes I'd be biased to Delta and only accumulate Chase UR points because I could get free delta upgrade seats. Assuming Delta has the same policy of AA, where all Exec Plat AA members get complimentary upgrades on any flight including overseas.

Last edited by jungly; Apr 22, 2018 at 3:04 pm
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Old Apr 22, 2018, 3:27 pm
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Originally Posted by jungly
To Summarize:
Most of us keep the following cards in our wallet: Chase Reserve + Amex Platinum as our keeper. Disposable cards throughout the year tend to be "Chase Marriot, Freedom, Freedom Unlimited, Amex SPG, Barclay Aviator etc" - you transfer all your UR points to your reserve card and close the others (that have a yearly fee), as for SPG, marriot, and others you have to use their freebee perks that year or carry forward and pay the annual fee.

All year round I stay with Hilton Hotels (Diamond status via CC), Avis (transfer to AA, not car points, Avis sucks for loyalty will be ditching them next year), and AA ( may be close to Executive Platinum).

So what's the end game? Since AA has no partner with Amex nor UR points, I'm out of luck. But I just want to take the family to a vacation overseas, so my allegiance to AA is null if my purpose is to get the best bang for the buck via credit card points.

Finally what I've learnt here:
UR Points: For Hyatt hotel
UR points: Delta (never flown with them, but then again there's no AA with chase so I'm stuck with Delta to get overseas)
Amex Plat: Again no AA. Anyone know which airline Amex gives highest transfer partner to overseas?

Moral of the story: Looks like I'll stick with UR due to peace of mind, even though Amex MR have higher rates per cent. Reason being: when the time comes to book flights more people like TPG are biased to Chase so its easier to research deals. For example: I learnt in this thread to book with Hyatt and Delta using if I ever decide to redeem my UR points. As for Amex Plat - that's still up in the air on what to do with all those points.

Question: Since AA is being stingent on acquiring partnerships with Chase/Amex - would you recommend I change to Delta next year and demand elite status match? If that were to happen, then yes I'd be biased to Delta and only accumulate Chase UR points because I could get free delta upgrade seats. Assuming Delta has the same policy of AA, where all Exec Plat AA members get complimentary upgrades on any flight including overseas.
Delta is not part of UR. It is part of MR.
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Old Apr 22, 2018, 5:32 pm
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Originally Posted by jungly
To Summarize:
Most of us keep the following cards in our wallet: Chase Reserve + Amex Platinum as our keeper. Disposable cards throughout the year tend to be "Chase Marriot, Freedom, Freedom Unlimited, Amex SPG, Barclay Aviator etc" - you transfer all your UR points to your reserve card and close the others (that have a yearly fee), as for SPG, marriot, and others you have to use their freebee perks that year or carry forward and pay the annual fee.

All year round I stay with Hilton Hotels (Diamond status via CC), Avis (transfer to AA, not car points, Avis sucks for loyalty will be ditching them next year), and AA ( may be close to Executive Platinum).

So what's the end game? Since AA has no partner with Amex nor UR points, I'm out of luck. But I just want to take the family to a vacation overseas, so my allegiance to AA is null if my purpose is to get the best bang for the buck via credit card points.

Finally what I've learnt here:
UR Points: For Hyatt hotel
UR points: Delta (never flown with them, but then again there's no AA with chase so I'm stuck with Delta to get overseas)
Amex Plat: Again no AA. Anyone know which airline Amex gives highest transfer partner to overseas?

Moral of the story: Looks like I'll stick with UR due to peace of mind, even though Amex MR have higher rates per cent. Reason being: when the time comes to book flights more people like TPG are biased to Chase so its easier to research deals. For example: I learnt in this thread to book with Hyatt and Delta using if I ever decide to redeem my UR points. As for Amex Plat - that's still up in the air on what to do with all those points.

Question: Since AA is being stingent on acquiring partnerships with Chase/Amex - would you recommend I change to Delta next year and demand elite status match? If that were to happen, then yes I'd be biased to Delta and only accumulate Chase UR points because I could get free delta upgrade seats. Assuming Delta has the same policy of AA, where all Exec Plat AA members get complimentary upgrades on any flight including overseas.
And I think you are totally wrong. CSR and Freedom/Unlimited are not being cancelled but used for 2x and Category Bonus.
Amex Platinum ... you state Hilton Diamond via CC ... yes but not via Platinum which is good for sign-on etc. daily spend is better kept on the Business Blue with 2x everywhere.
If you want to get AA miles than use CITI cards. Why think about Skypesos?

Don't make it more complicated that it already is.

Last edited by blitzen; Apr 22, 2018 at 6:27 pm
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Old Apr 22, 2018, 6:10 pm
  #58  
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Originally Posted by jungly
Assuming Delta has the same policy of AA, where all Exec Plat AA members get complimentary upgrades on any flight including overseas.
I don't know what DL has, but on AA, Exec Plat member get complimentary upgrades without needing instruments only on domestic flights. For overseas flights, they get a limited number (4?) of SWUs (systemwide upgrades) each of which can only be used one-way in the same situations that miles+copay upgrades can be used (ie, you need the same upgrade inventory available).

Meanwhile, DL may well more complicated because they have Comfort Plus universally as an extra cabin between coach an business. So I don't know if you need to have Comfort Plus seat to qualify for an upgrade (beyond C+) or not.

Originally Posted by jungly
Most of us keep the following cards in our wallet: Chase Reserve + Amex Platinum as our keeper.
Most of who???

Certainly not most of FTers. Do you just means most people posting in this thread?

Given that both of those are expensive cards, there's a lot of people who don't bother with them. I, for example, don't have either one, and don't see a use for either one for myself (that would justify the annual fee).

And I get AA miles by churning AA cards (which are available from two banks), not by having a convertible points program that transfers to AA (since none exists). There are people in the Citi forum AA thread, in fact, who get so many AA mailers (which have no "24 month" language that they're getting an AA signup boons almost every month. But of course, that puts them way over 5/24 very quickly, so you have to decide what's most important to you, more Chase cards, or AA miles.

Last edited by sdsearch; Apr 22, 2018 at 6:19 pm
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Old Apr 22, 2018, 6:35 pm
  #59  
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Originally Posted by jungly
To Summarize:
Most of us keep the following cards in our wallet: Chase Reserve + Amex Platinum as our keeper. Disposable cards throughout the year tend to be "Chase Marriot, Freedom, Freedom Unlimited, Amex SPG, Barclay Aviator etc" - you transfer all your UR points to your reserve card and close the others (that have a yearly fee), as for SPG, marriot, and others you have to use their freebee perks that year or carry forward and pay the annual fee.

All year round I stay with Hilton Hotels (Diamond status via CC), Avis (transfer to AA, not car points, Avis sucks for loyalty will be ditching them next year), and AA ( may be close to Executive Platinum).

So what's the end game? Since AA has no partner with Amex nor UR points, I'm out of luck. But I just want to take the family to a vacation overseas, so my allegiance to AA is null if my purpose is to get the best bang for the buck via credit card points.

Finally what I've learnt here:
UR Points: For Hyatt hotel
UR points: Delta (never flown with them, but then again there's no AA with chase so I'm stuck with Delta to get overseas)
Amex Plat: Again no AA. Anyone know which airline Amex gives highest transfer partner to overseas?

Moral of the story: Looks like I'll stick with UR due to peace of mind, even though Amex MR have higher rates per cent. Reason being: when the time comes to book flights more people like TPG are biased to Chase so its easier to research deals. For example: I learnt in this thread to book with Hyatt and Delta using if I ever decide to redeem my UR points. As for Amex Plat - that's still up in the air on what to do with all those points.

Question: Since AA is being stingent on acquiring partnerships with Chase/Amex - would you recommend I change to Delta next year and demand elite status match? If that were to happen, then yes I'd be biased to Delta and only accumulate Chase UR points because I could get free delta upgrade seats. Assuming Delta has the same policy of AA, where all Exec Plat AA members get complimentary upgrades on any flight including overseas.
There is so much confusion and misinformation in your post that I'm just gonna leave this here:

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Old Apr 23, 2018, 7:38 am
  #60  
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Originally Posted by jungly
.... want to take the family to a vacation overseas, so my allegiance to AA is null if my purpose is to get the best bang for the buck via credit card points....
You need to spend some time reading this thread.

https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/citi...-business.html
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