der_saeufer

I don't know, actually. I suspect they're using online PIN since it's a modern terminal and the transactions are processed immediately, but I don't think I have any way to know for sure--my First Tech card and my local card support both methods, and my Chase card supports neither. I'll see if any of the cards I have in the 'sock drawer' are online-only (USAA?) and go try one... and/or I'll get receipts and see if the auth method is listed on them.

Edit: So according to the database linked in the EMV thread wiki, USAA's credit card supports both online and offline PIN, but my First Tech debit card allegedly only supports online PIN. I haven't used that to buy gas (or anything else) here, but I'll give it a shot next time I fill the 1-gallon tank on my scooter

Late edit, sorry: I can't find any cards that support only offline PIN and not online PIN, so I have no way of testing that but that also means there shouldn't be a situation where it matters. Looks like SDFCU and Andrews credit cards are offline, unencrypted PIN only. I don't have either, but I think someone up-thread reported no issues with SDFCU in an unattended gas pump.

It looks from the same database like the debit cards of all the PSCU-serviced credit unions are online-only. My friend's debit card from a random credit union in the Midwest worked in an NMBS/SNCB ticket kiosk, so those are probably using online PIN.

CALlegacy

My understanding of all this is primitive, but I have the impression a problem sometimes experienced is that if the first validation method in the list is not offline PIN, then the transaction fails. I understand your post says "online" so I am not sure about that. Supporting offline PIN in general is not enough. Here is a set of exchanges about the new USAA VISA which now does not work compared to the MC that used to work because the first priority is now signature instead of offline PIN: https://communities.usaa.com/t5/Bank.../132858#M33430 This is the sort of thing that is driving people crazy.

der_saeufer

It should still work as long as one of the methods on the card matches one of the methods the terminal wants. The search is done in the card's priority order. USAA has been so inconsistent with their EMV rollout that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they've shipped identical cards where some support offline PIN and some don't.

That was my experience with my Andrews credit card (which preferred signature, but supports offline PIN)--even in countries where 100% of local cards use PIN, I got a signature slip at the restaurant, but it worked with a PIN in unattended kiosks. Likewise, my First Tech card and my old black USAA MasterCard preferred PIN and would prompt for a PIN even at Target, but they'd run no CVM in American gas pumps.

My friend's random credit union debit card is the same story--at any attended location he has to sign, but he was able to use his PIN to buy a train ticket from a machine that definitely does not work with cards that don't support PIN. (C'mon Chase, I want my 3x UR on train tickets!)

And to re-edit my earlier post, Andrews and SDFCU credit cards are both offline-PIN only, not sure how I missed that. I don't have either of those cards, but I think someone up-thread mentioned SDFCU cards working in unattended European gas pumps.

My suspicion, then, is that the gas pumps and kiosks here in Belgium support both online and offline PIN. I'll report back after trying an online-only card, but I don't have an offline-only card to use.

tmiw

I'm not even sure issuers are allowed to have offline PIN for debit cards at all, actually; even pro-PIN issuers like UNFCU are online PIN only for those despite preferring offline PIN on credit cards. (I'd speculate that it's some Visa restriction except that my Capital One 360 debit card also only has online PIN.)

More interesting is the fact that despite the networks wanting online PIN to be the type used in the US, the issuers that have PIN at all tend to have offline PIN instead for credit cards. My theory is that since PIN is mostly only there to make foreign unattended terminals play better, online PIN would be superfluous and might possibly cause rejections. Additionally, online PIN support in the US is actually pretty poor in my experience (outside of the merchants that supported debit cards pre-EMV), so for the PIN-preferring issuers to get any benefit they need to prefer a PIN type that has the highest chance of being supported.

der_saeufer

As promised, used my online-only First Tech MasterCard debit card to buy some gas at a closed station today. Worked fine.

...so I suspect that as US ATM networks switch more and more to using the chip, most Americans' debit cards will be a usable backup for the sign-only credit cards most banks insist on issuing.

EDIT: and to add a "shame on Chase" data point, I recently received a new B of A credit card. When I activated it online, I assigned it a PIN. I then proceeded to use it 2 hours later to buy fuel from an unattended station. Come on Chase, you have 95% of the infrastructure there to support online PIN. Do it.

joshwex90

Has Chase updated this regarding the CSP? I've used my Citi AAdvantage card with no issues at unattended kiosks and the cash advance PIN I assigned which also functions as an online PIN. (Haven't been to such rural gas stations that only take offline PIN.) But recently switched to CSP and would hope I can use it as well at places such as train stations, etc., without waiting on long lines. The following isn't promising: https://www.chase.com/digital/fraud-...ity/faq-credit

alggag

I don't think so. I was in Italy about two weeks ago and while I was able to use my CSR for nearly all transactions (including buying train tickets from the Trenitalia kiosk) it was rejected when I tried to use it at a kiosk in Florence. The kiosk did have a sign on it explicitly saying that it would only accept PIN capable cards but I decided to give the CSR a try as there was no line but it was automatically declined and I had to fall back on my chip and PIN capable Barclaycard. I never even had the opportunity to try the workarounds that Chase suggests in that link.

My CSR was also automatically declined a few months ago in Belgium when trying to buy tickets from a Belgian Rail kiosk. In that case I'm glad I had the Barclaycard to fall back on as it was an early morning train and the staffed ticket windows weren't open yet.

joshwex90

Alright, good to know. Thanks - I have a card with offline PIN priority but prefer CSP, but will make sure to bring that

tmiw

Last time I was in Europe (UK specifically) I just used Apple Pay for nearly everything, so the issue didn't even have the opportunity to come up. I'm not sure if that's possible to use for ticket machines in the rest of Europe currently but it definitely will be in a couple of years thanks to Visa/MC mandates.

In short, I'm not sure PIN really matters much anymore.

der_saeufer

If you have contactless, the only place PIN matters in the UK is unattended gas pumps, and some of those don't take anything but UK-issued cards. Luckily 24-hour gas stations are pretty common there. My CSR has worked in every UK rail or transit kiosk I've ever tried.

On the continent, though, no PIN generally still means no train or metro tickets from the kiosk and no gas when the shop is closed. Eventually they'll get contactless but it'll probably be a long while before they replace all those payment terminals.

joshwex90

It'll be awhile until contactless comes to such unattended kiosks. Until then, PIN still does matter.

As for contactless, I'm still not clear - does Google Pay now work wherever contactless is accepted? For example, The Netherlands aren't listed as a supported country but do have widespread contactless payments. So can I use it there or not?

tmiw

It always has but it's never going to be able to make, say, a Maestro-only merchant suddenly accept Mastercard.

joshwex90

What do you mean? I use my MasterCard all over Europe with contactless payment (unfortunately can't set it up with Google Pay because it's not American)

tmiw

What I meant was that the mobile wallets don't make it so that a merchant can accept a card type that they don't already accept. That is, they're not suddenly going to allow AmEx when tapping if they already don't allow it for the physical cards (as an example).

In general, however, if tap is enabled, mobile wallets will work too.

sdsearch

Some merchants in some countries only accept locally-issued Meastro cards, not Master Card cards from other countries. IIRC Denmark is one of those countries.

A phone app isn't going turn Master Card suddenly into Maestro just because that's all that's supported, will it? It'd be cool if it did, but that would seem to require a phone app that doesn't exist.

I'd even more like a phone app that could be used to pay cash-only merchants worldwide with a credit card, with no fees. But I'm not sure if that's as realizable a dream as, say, world peace .