Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Credit, Debit and Prepaid Card Programs > Chase | Ultimate Rewards
Reload this Page >

Lack of PIN-enabled Chase CHIP card impacts acceptance in Italy?

Lack of PIN-enabled Chase CHIP card impacts acceptance in Italy?

Old Aug 3, 2017, 5:33 pm
  #31  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 25,939
Originally Posted by tmiw
Visa may be discouraging it for credit cards somehow but that's different than an outright ban. Examples of Visa cards that support PIN:

  • BofA's credit cards (online PIN after "no CVM")
Well, they do a good job of hiding it. I've applied for a bunch of Alaska cards over the last few years, and never have I gotten any information about this. And without knowing that it has PIN, I wouldn't know the PIN (since I never use credit cards for cash advance), and without knowing the PIN, how could I possibly use it?

So is Visa discouraging banks from mentioning that they support PIN when they do?
sdsearch is offline  
Old Aug 3, 2017, 6:36 pm
  #32  
mia
Flyertalk Posting Legend Moderator: Credit Card Programs, American Express, Capital One, Chase, Citi, Diners Club, Signatures.
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 48,982
VISA has an amusing page touting Chip & Choice which extols the virtues of signature verification. They assert that if PIN verification were required diners would need to accompany their waiter to the POS machine to enter it .

Last edited by mia; Aug 3, 2017 at 6:42 pm
mia is offline  
Old Aug 3, 2017, 8:23 pm
  #33  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Houston (HOU/IAH)
Programs: WN, UA, DL, AA, Chase UR, Amex MR
Posts: 2,269
Originally Posted by mia
VISA has an amusing page touting Chip & Choice which extols the virtues of signature verification. They assert that if PIN verification were required diners would need to accompany their waiter to the POS machine to enter it .
Argh, that's another grievance of mine. I've had my card number stolen four different times over the years and all four times happened at home and I'm 99% sure the card was skimmed by the waiter when they disappeared with it. Why, why, why can't we do like just about everywhere else in the world and have the waiter bring the card reader to you instead?
alggag is offline  
Old Aug 3, 2017, 9:28 pm
  #34  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,513
Originally Posted by sdsearch
Well, they do a good job of hiding it. I've applied for a bunch of Alaska cards over the last few years, and never have I gotten any information about this. And without knowing that it has PIN, I wouldn't know the PIN (since I never use credit cards for cash advance), and without knowing the PIN, how could I possibly use it?

So is Visa discouraging banks from mentioning that they support PIN when they do?
To BofA's credit, they actually do talk about it now, though you have to dig a little for the linked page:

When traveling outside the U.S., some card readers at unattended terminals (such as public transportation kiosks, gas pumps) will require a PIN. In these situations, enter the credit card PIN assigned to your card. Some international self-service terminals do not accept U.S. issued credit cards and may display a message such as "Transaction Canceled". This is known to happen on French Toll Roads or Automated Fuel Dispensers depending on location. In these cases, please locate an attended terminal to complete your transaction, or plan for an alternative payment method, such as local currency.

On rare occasions, you may be asked to provide a PIN to complete a purchase. If prompted for a PIN, enter the credit card PIN that was assigned to your card when the account was opened. If you do not have the PIN, you may request a new one by calling the number on the back your card or through Online Banking. Your new, randomly generated PIN will be mailed to you along with a form that allows you to choose your own PIN if you desire. Please allow 7-10 days for delivery of your PIN through standard USPS mail.
Considering how their cards are set up, it's very possible that you'll never be asked for the PIN--especially if you only use the card domestically--so having that info available was likely low priority.

Originally Posted by alggag
Argh, that's another grievance of mine. I've had my card number stolen four different times over the years and all four times happened at home and I'm 99% sure the card was skimmed by the waiter when they disappeared with it. Why, why, why can't we do like just about everywhere else in the world and have the waiter bring the card reader to you instead?
One of the restaurants located in SAN brought the terminal to me the other day, actually. That sort of thing will probably be very uncommon outside of areas where foreign cards are common though (like airports).
tmiw is online now  
Old Aug 4, 2017, 1:11 pm
  #35  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SEA
Posts: 3,961
You have lots of good answers in this thread, so I'll just sum up my experience: You'll be fine, with a couple of exceptions. For the most part, chip and signature works just fine in Italy. Gas stations and unmanned train ticket kiosks will be the only challenges. If you're a tourist, just use cash for gas, and use manned train ticket kiosks for things like local trains. If you're traveling high speed with trenitalia, or at least using the major rail stations in the cities, you likely won't even run into anything that I described.

I go to Italy a lot and have never run into a situation where I couldn't use my chip+sig card. I don't rent cars, but if I did, I'd just carry cash for gas (it's not as though the pumps ONLY take cards).

Originally Posted by mia
VISA has an amusing page touting Chip & Choice which extols the virtues of signature verification. They assert that if PIN verification were required diners would need to accompany their waiter to the POS machine to enter it .
Well, in Italy, they often bring the POS to you anyway if you hand them a card. Chip+PIN is common in Europe so they're used to it. They just bring over a small handheld POS and you enter your pin. I guess in the US it'd be weird only because you're then entering a tip amount, but even that's not awkward.
PWMTrav is offline  
Old Aug 4, 2017, 1:19 pm
  #36  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Programs: UA Platinum, Hilton Diamond, Marriott Gold
Posts: 149
I was in Italy in May 2017 and used my CSR in numerous restaurants with no trouble at all. Never took a train or bought gasoline, though.
festdave is offline  
Old Aug 4, 2017, 1:33 pm
  #37  
mia
Flyertalk Posting Legend Moderator: Credit Card Programs, American Express, Capital One, Chase, Citi, Diners Club, Signatures.
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Miami, Mpls & London
Programs: AA & Marriott Perpetual Platinum; DL & HH Gold
Posts: 48,982
Originally Posted by PWMTrav
...they often bring the POS to you....
You know this, I know this, VISA certainly knows this. The Chip & Choice argument is misrepresentation.
mia is offline  
Old Aug 4, 2017, 3:34 pm
  #38  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,513
Originally Posted by mia
You know this, I know this, VISA certainly knows this. The Chip & Choice argument is misrepresentation.
It makes a little more sense if you think of it as "chip and merchant choice". For example, restaurants aren't required to buy wireless terminals if they don't want to.
tmiw is online now  
Old Aug 4, 2017, 9:01 pm
  #39  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Programs: HHonors, TrueBlue, Delta SkyMiles, Hyatt Discoverist, Starwood Preferred Guest, American Airlines.
Posts: 2,035
Originally Posted by tmiw
It makes a little more sense if you think of it as "chip and merchant choice". For example, restaurants aren't required to buy wireless terminals if they don't want to.
They're required to buy those terminals in countries where chip and PIN is the law, unless the restaurant wants to implement pay at the counter system.
mikesyr18 is offline  
Old Aug 4, 2017, 9:21 pm
  #40  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 25,939
Originally Posted by PWMTrav
I go to Italy a lot and have never run into a situation where I couldn't use my chip+sig card. I don't rent cars, but if I did, I'd just carry cash for gas (it's not as though the pumps ONLY take cards).
Yes, it is. Unattended gas stations only tend to take cards at the pump. You can certainly run into those in France on weekends rurally, and I certainly ran into that (requiring a PIN card, not sure if online or offline since my card had both) at a gas station at night in rural Norway. I haven't driven a rental in Italy to date so I don't know if there are unattended gas stations at night or on weekends away from the big cities in Italy (like there are in France and Norway) that do demand PIN cards (and perhaps only offline PIN?).

Of course, with good planning (topping off way before you get to empty), you can presumably avoid having to gas up at unattended pumps in most places, if you know that could be a problem.
sdsearch is offline  
Old Aug 4, 2017, 11:02 pm
  #41  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,513
Originally Posted by mikesyr18
They're required to buy those terminals in countries where chip and PIN is the law, unless the restaurant wants to implement pay at the counter system.
Most other places don't have tipping, not to mention that EMV isn't actually mandated by law in the US. If being able to buy a wired terminal for less money means that more restaurants start supporting chip, that's probably a good thing.
tmiw is online now  
Old Aug 7, 2017, 8:23 am
  #42  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Programs: DL 2MM PM;VSGld;EKGld; HilDia; HrtzPC; AvisPC; PP; AmbPlt; JumeiGld; MeliaPlt; TajPlt; ShangriDia
Posts: 953
Originally Posted by tmiw
Visa may be discouraging it for credit cards somehow but that's different than an outright ban. Examples of Visa cards that support PIN:

  • UNFCU's credit and debit cards (offline PIN preferring for the former, online PIN preferring for the latter)
  • BofA's credit cards (online PIN after "no CVM")
  • Navy Federal's credit cards (PIN after "no CVM")
  • USAA's credit cards (PIN after signature)
  • Every other US issued Visa Debit card (online PIN immediately after signature)

More examples here.
Similarly, SDFCU is a Visa card and they allow the cardholder to choose whether to have a primary Chip & PIN issued card or to live with a Signature preferred + PIN card. (They issue the Signature preferred in the absence of a specific request for Chip & PIN). When I asked specifically for Chip & PIN, SDFCU sent out a new credit card that looked identical to the original Signature preferred card but now requests PIN in lieu of signature at all chip-enabled U.S. terminals, if a signature would normally be required.

Interestingly, the Chip & PIN cards mention that the first time the card is used at a terminal, the PIN is downloaded onto the chip. The SDFCU card does not require the PIN at McDonald's. However, interestingly, the first time I used the new Chip & PIN card was at a McDonald's drive through and it drove the staff crazy-- it took about 90 seconds for the transaction to process, probably because the PIN was being downloaded to the chip, and the cashier called a supervisor thinking that the payment system was having problems. (By the time the supervisor arrived, the PIN had downloaded and the transaction approved without PIN or signature.)

It appears U.S. gas stations default on zip codes for address verification rather than a PIN for Chip & PIN cards. Even with a European AMEX Chip & PIN, U.S. gas stations require the foreign zip code in lieu of the PIN to activate the fuel pump.

Last edited by LAXRuss; Aug 7, 2017 at 8:29 am
LAXRuss is offline  
Old Aug 7, 2017, 9:40 am
  #43  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: San Diego, CA
Programs: GE, Marriott Platinum
Posts: 15,513
Originally Posted by LAXRuss
Similarly, SDFCU is a Visa card and they allow the cardholder to choose whether to have a primary Chip & PIN issued card or to live with a Signature preferred + PIN card. (They issue the Signature preferred in the absence of a specific request for Chip & PIN). When I asked specifically for Chip & PIN, SDFCU sent out a new credit card that looked identical to the original Signature preferred card but now requests PIN in lieu of signature at all chip-enabled U.S. terminals, if a signature would normally be required.

Interestingly, the Chip & PIN cards mention that the first time the card is used at a terminal, the PIN is downloaded onto the chip. The SDFCU card does not require the PIN at McDonald's. However, interestingly, the first time I used the new Chip & PIN card was at a McDonald's drive through and it drove the staff crazy-- it took about 90 seconds for the transaction to process, probably because the PIN was being downloaded to the chip, and the cashier called a supervisor thinking that the payment system was having problems. (By the time the supervisor arrived, the PIN had downloaded and the transaction approved without PIN or signature.)

It appears U.S. gas stations default on zip codes for address verification rather than a PIN for Chip & PIN cards. Even with a European AMEX Chip & PIN, U.S. gas stations require the foreign zip code in lieu of the PIN to activate the fuel pump.
With my Diners Club card (which had the PIN baked into the chip from the start), I find that a lot of merchants in the US don't bother asking for PIN at all, at least for smaller amounts. Recent examples for me of such places include Walgreens, In-N-Out and 7-Eleven. I wouldn't be surprised if this became more common, especially since restaurants aren't bothering with wireless terminals.

As for gas stations, only one in the entire country that I know of supports chip at the pump. Every other one still uses the magstripe and thus behaves as such. (That gas station with chip support is somewhere in North Carolina, IIRC.)
tmiw is online now  
Old Aug 7, 2017, 2:42 pm
  #44  
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: DEL
Posts: 1,062
Originally Posted by sdsearch
Yes, it is. Unattended gas stations only tend to take cards at the pump. You can certainly run into those in France on weekends rurally, and I certainly ran into that (requiring a PIN card, not sure if online or offline since my card had both) at a gas station at night in rural Norway. I haven't driven a rental in Italy to date so I don't know if there are unattended gas stations at night or on weekends away from the big cities in Italy (like there are in France and Norway) that do demand PIN cards (and perhaps only offline PIN?).

Of course, with good planning (topping off way before you get to empty), you can presumably avoid having to gas up at unattended pumps in most places, if you know that could be a problem.
Here in Belgium, other than gas stations right along the major highways, essentially every station is closed at night and on Sunday--even in the big cities. Whether they use cardlocks or readers on the pump, no PIN means no gas. It's not that big a country, but you definitely have to plan far ahead if you can't pay at the pump.
der_saeufer is offline  
Old Aug 7, 2017, 5:55 pm
  #45  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: home = LAX
Posts: 25,939
Originally Posted by der_saeufer
Here in Belgium, other than gas stations right along the major highways, essentially every station is closed at night and on Sunday--even in the big cities. Whether they use cardlocks or readers on the pump, no PIN means no gas. It's not that big a country, but you definitely have to plan far ahead if you can't pay at the pump.
Do you know whether these nighttime gas stations in Belgium accept online PIN or offline PIN or both? Some US cards only have one (most typically online PIN if only one, I think).

Online PIN means it goes online for verification, and the PIN is checked at the bank. Offline PIN means it stays offline to do the verification, and the PIN checked within the card itself.
sdsearch is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Manage Preferences - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.