bribro

It was probably just language leftover from when they used to allow CPC clients to apply for the J.P. Morgan Palladium card. Good to see they finally fixed it since I could see how that would be confusing.

Interestingly enough, the CEO of the Chase consumer bank, who was largely responsible for the creation of CPC, recently took over as CEO of Wealth Management for all of JPMC, which encompasses CPC and the JPMPB. I suspect this will lead to more distinct segmentation across JPMC's wealth management divisions, as has been the pattern recently.

Perhaps there is some truth to the rumors I've heard that non-JPM clients who managed to get the JPMR will soon be weeded out and downgraded to the CSR, to ensure that the JPMR is exclusive to JPM clients (as originally intended). This wouldn't surprise me since they are already downgrading the banking accounts of clients that used to be in the JPMPB, but can no longer qualify given the higher $10 million AUM minimum.

sfeater

Would be nice, but wouldn't be consistent with allowing Palladium holders to convert to the JPMR.

Venomz

Agreed, I don't believe they would do that either

darkhound

I wonder how that conversation goes. Hey, you have been a great customer and we appreciate you being with us when the economy was down. Now that things have picked up for us, we've decided you are too poor. See ya. But you're still a CPC! Please don't leave!

DrMilano

Wonder if the hidden trade line on the Palladium and Select is a factor that is allowing product changes to the JPMR?

bribro

Wouldn't want to be a JPM banker sharing that kind of news with a customer.

Regarding the JPMR, it should be easy enough to get rid of the loophole applicants and fax line cheaters; I think JPMC should take a page from AmEx's book and claw back all the points from those people and blacklist them, since they are clearly bad customers.

Downgrading the CPC clients is obviously a little more difficult/awkward. One way to do it would be to bump the JPMR AF up to something like $5,000, but waive it automatically for real JPM clients.

dlesin

They aren't being kicked down to CPC, there will be a new division named Private Client Direct for people under $10mm AUM and a division named Enterprise solutions for those with $750mm+ AUM. Second tier has already started being serviced and converted and PCD should start in January

darkhound

Not sure I would call them bad customers, esp. the CPC customers. Recall that at the time, the CPC website explicitly stated "Chase Private Clients can choose from any ... JP Morgan credit card." The plain language of this means that CPCs were entitled to the JPM Reserve card. Why else have they since changed the language?

Also, nothing in the application (http://therewardboss.com/wp-content/...pplication.pdf) suggested that the card was for JP Morgan private client only. In fact, the application itself has a checkbox suggesting that customers with only Chase accounts can apply.Normal Chase customers and CPCs who (appropriately) selected "Chase" got approved.

Further, the fact that the application had a JP Morgan logo meant nothing. For example, at the time, CPC could (and can still) get a JP Morgan branded Ritz Carlton card. Also, at the time, a CPC could get a JP Morgan Palladium card. At the time, the JPM Ritz was available to CPCs. The JPM Palladium was available to CPCs. Why wouldn't the JPM Reserve also be available to CPCs?

There won't be clawbacks. Amex clawbacks were the result of new information - Amex discovering that people had manufactured spending - a violation of existing terms.

Here, there isn't any new info - JPM Chase approved the apps with full information available to them. And no violation of terms. Exactly what term in the app (http://therewardboss.com/wp-content/...pplication.pdf) was a CPC violating?

sfeater

You're arguing technicalities when all evidence associated with intent points toward the JPMR being meant exclusively for clients of JPM PB and Palladium cardholders, with a few people who didn't qualify via either method slipping through the briefly open cracks.

bribro

I'm not sure how I could have made my post any more clear. "Regarding the JPMR, it should be easy enough to get rid of the loophole applicants and fax line cheaters; I think JPMC should take a page from AmEx's book and claw back all the points from those people and blacklist them, since they are clearly bad customers."

Obviously, I was referring to "loophole applicants and fax line cheaters" as the bad customers, because they are. Those people used an application that was leaked on the Internet to apply for an invitation-only card that was never intended for them. They are precisely the type of customer JPMC is trying to avoid with things like the 5/24 rule, and it's well within JPMC's rights to claw back their points and blacklist them.

CPC clients are by no stretch of the imagination bad customers, but they were never supposed to have access to the J.P. Morgan Reserve card either. That much is clear.

MDJennings

I wouldn't even mind paying that fee as a freshly minted PB if it provided service/benefits to match.

Nick92

I agree, I don't anticipate anything happening. I think the real indication is that they are allowing Pd to JPMR conversions. It doesn't make sense to allow conversions, only to later rescind them. As others have stated, I think the number is too small and they aren't worried.

darkhound

Were people supposed to be mind readers to know JP Morgan's intent? How exactly was anybody supposed to guess JP Morgan's intent for this to be invitation only? Can you list the reasons?

I'll list the reasons why people reasonably thought that this wouldn't be limited by invitation to JPM private clients only:

1 - The application itself has a checkbox that that asks if you are a Chase customer.


2 - Nothing on the application itself says that it is limited to JPM clients.

3 - The application says this is a JP Morgan card. Two other JP Morgan branded cards (the Ritz and the Palladium) were not limited by invitation to only JPM private clients. In fact, the Ritz was open to everyone. There was no reason for anyone to think that the Reserve was an exception.

4 - The fact that the JPMR application was leaked is irrelevant. A leaked application doesn't mean the application is supposed to be invitation-only. No one can make such an inference. The Chase Sapphire Reserve application was also leaked before its official release. By your logic, people should have known the CSR application was invite-only as well (obviously wrong).

5 - The CPC website stated that CPC customers were entitled to "any JP Morgan credit card." This clearly conveyed to all that the JP Morgan card was not intended to be limited to JPM clients by invitation only.


6 - JP Morgan Chase had all information at their disposal when making the approval decision: SSN, credit history, whether the applicant had Chase/JPM accounts and their amounts, their spending history. And with all that information in hand, they made a manual, individual determination to approve or not. In fact, many people were interviewed by phone even after the fax line was shut down; they honestly disclosed everything in 10min+ conversations and were approved.

I think the problem is that JPM bankers told their clients that this new card was coming out and only they would qualify for this special card. But that message was never communicated to the public. From the public's perspective, this was just another JPM card in a line of JPM cards that were never invitation only. So there can be no bad-faith intent. And there certainly is no breach in the Terms (http://therewardboss.com/wp-content/...pplication.pdf).

Then, JPM was incompetent and let this card and application out to the public. And even though it was a manual underwriting process where JPM had every single bit of information about the applicants (and clearly knew which applicants were private clients or not), they individually and manually approved everyone.

So I get why JPM clients are a bit tiffed. They were promised this metal card that would make them feel special. But then it got released to the public and the bankers manually approved everyone despite having all info on the applicants. But the public never knew this was supposed to be invite only for JPM clients! See 6 reasons above. I get the anger but it is misplaced. Instead of blaming the public, you should be blaming the idiot bankers at JPM who let this happen (especially as it comes only a few years after they let the same thing happen with the Palladium).

sfeater

You're certainly going through a lot of trouble to prove willful ignorance - something that doesn't work nor would it have to, since JPM / Chase can do whatever they want. You're arguing all the technicalities on the side of the consumer and ignoring the most important ones on the side of the lender - their technicalities allow them to close your accounts for whatever reason they want. They almost certainly won't do that, but it renders your entire argument moot.

And no one is angry - I doubt more than a handful of people slipped through the cracks that were only open for a few days, likely far fewer than the number of Palladium cardholders that converted over. If I wanted a shiny metal card, I would have gotten the Palladium when it was available.

bribro

Any reasonable person can see that the J.P. Morgan Reserve card was always intended to be exclusively for J.P. Morgan clients. You are grasping at straws here darkhound, pointing to outdated language on a webpage (that has since been corrected) and a generic check box that is on all JPMC credit card PDF applications.

If the JPMR was intended for CPC clients, CPC clients wouldn't have to find out about it on the Internet, download a leaked PDF application, and try to either fax it in directly or drive from branch to branch asking CPC bankers (many of whom had no idea the card even existed) to try and submit their applications. The fact that JPMC changed that website language, which was leftover from the Palladium days, should be proof enough that this card is intended for JPM clients only.