May 15, 2014, 8:16 am
Last edit by: StartinSanDiego
This thread is now archived. Please follow the topic here: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase-ultimate-rewards/1986148-chase-closed-my-credit-card-account-s-tales-speculation-2019-thread.html
If you feel your account has been unfairly closed, consider filing a complaint with the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau:
CFPB's complaint form: http://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
When someone reports an account closure here, a lot of the same questions get asked. It might be useful to answer some questions in advance. This could help figure out what happened or how to proceed:
2013.9
2013.12 2014.6
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase...ta-points.html
On 1/4/15, LivelyFL noted that 34 posts have referenced account closures (updated 1/25/15):
1, 55, 80, 108, 117, 129, 146, 165, 182, 212, 221, 222, 232, 235, 262, 272, 281, 326, 364, 410, 411, 428, 475, 477, 482, 513, 552, 586, 620, 648, 656, 662, 714, 718, 784 and 815.
Mortgasm provided more detail as follows:
001 - moarmiles little explaination - 'inconsistent spending'
055 - brettskyg chase gift cards tiny ms
080 - Artemk checking chase gift card, tiny MS, international wires, wall-mart BP
108 - TTnc4me (105 actually) no info
117 - rodsren
129 - Kybosh chase gift card checking
146 - mintcilantro - checking 6k/month MS, BB payments from another ss#, some MO/AP, 7new cards in 90days, short cycling
165 - newcomr - checking
182 - thehawk75 - heavy MSw/other banks,
212 - LRD - 2x spend of 20k /month (on two cards), checking
221 - iceman 77_7, no info
222 - jk2 no info
232 - hitman1420 checking , heavy MS activity (no number)
235 - clearlyanewb checking, MS activity (10k AGC and more), light credit history, 10 recent inquiries
262 - brc01 - shortcycling, some MS (18k/month over a few cards), 1
272 - rambo - 70% MS on 5 cards, WM BP of 16k/month on 5 cards
281 - prestonv - heavy MS - 20k/month on multiple chase cards, heavy WMBP (ink stayed open)
326 - pacupgo - false alarm, no shutdown
364 - edh101985 - tiny MS (bonus only) , 4 chase cards in 6 months,
410 - msetr - lots of freedom/ink ms
411 - standaman360 - international wires (business), million dollar balances,
428 - queensgambit - gambling transactions, UR point transfer from SO, 5 chase apps 3 new chase cc in 45 days, Blogger points coach
475 - dogloverjb - checking, international wires,
477 - ftomasz - 14 inquiries in 8 months, 5 chase, minimal MS, rapid upswing in credit, paying from multiple accounts
482 - liw5215 - Heavy MS, re-entered after 13 months
513 - thegasguru - checking, $3k/month MO to checking, NO MS, AP,
552 - LAXtoWorld - 3 cards in 30 days
586 - adavydov7 checking, $1k APs,
648 - CMHFlyerOH - checking, MO, 3k gift cards
656 - I can see for miles - Maxed UR 5x rewards on Freedom and Ink cards. Chased closed all accounts. Was approved for Ritz Carlton card 14 months later and did nothing unusual with it, other than lower CL from 30K to 10K to free up CL for possible approvals. Two subsequent Chase apps (Chase Ink and Marriott Rewards), on separate dates 3+ months later, were declined for a "previous unsatisfactory relationship ..."
662 - frogdog51 - Chase VGCs (Reapproved in 12 months)
677 - Subdawg - closed for piggybacking
714 - Mamibear - 'abuse' redcard MS
718 - maxswanson - MS, 11 chase cards, traded UR, (reapproved after 12 months)
752 - peaser - "reputational risk" associated with the business (decision reversed later)
757 - uncommonsensical checking, 3 Cashier's Check deposits with quick w/d (the w/d were to pay CHASE credit cards! ridiculous 'loss prevention' dept. gods). All CC's closed 2 days later. Tried EX Office- they seem to have zero power once the Mullah in loss prevention has issued a fatwa (my guess: some 27 year old with a god complex).
762 - knopfler - checking closed (all credit cards closed in both mine and Mrs. Knopflers accounts about three weeks after checking closure)
771 - milemonkey - 'reputational Risk" connected to Attorney General lawsuit
784 - unstable one: 2 cash deposits over 10k to chase checking
815 - dukerau - one time UR point sale, 77% spending is 5x,
If you feel your account has been unfairly closed, consider filing a complaint with the Consumer Protection Financial Bureau:
CFPB's complaint form: http://www.consumerfinance.gov/complaint/
When someone reports an account closure here, a lot of the same questions get asked. It might be useful to answer some questions in advance. This could help figure out what happened or how to proceed:
- Did you transfer UR points to someone with a different address? Different last name?
- Did you sell UR points to someone?
- Approximately what percentage of your charges earned less than 5x points in the past 12 months?
- Did a Chase or non-Chase bank recently close one of your credit cards?
- Are you using up a large percentage of your credit line on all Chase and non-Chase credit cards?
- Is your total credit line with Chase much higher than with other banks?
- Did you apply for many credit cards or other forms of credit in the past 2 months? ("Many" may be hard to define.)
- If you have a Chase checking account how much did you typically deposit in money orders per month, if any?
- Did you recently start spending a lot more with Chase than in typical months?
- Is your monthly balance frequently close to your credit limit?
- Approximately what percentage of spending was on gift cards this year?
- How much of your bill do you typically pay using WM or KMart bill payment if any?
- Do you have a Chase mortgage or other account that might be profitable to Chase?
- Has your credit score or credit profile changed recently? As in: significantly more debt, more open credit lines, or a large drop in your credit score?
2013.9
2013.12 2014.6
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/chase...ta-points.html
On 1/4/15, LivelyFL noted that 34 posts have referenced account closures (updated 1/25/15):
1, 55, 80, 108, 117, 129, 146, 165, 182, 212, 221, 222, 232, 235, 262, 272, 281, 326, 364, 410, 411, 428, 475, 477, 482, 513, 552, 586, 620, 648, 656, 662, 714, 718, 784 and 815.
Mortgasm provided more detail as follows:
001 - moarmiles little explaination - 'inconsistent spending'
055 - brettskyg chase gift cards tiny ms
080 - Artemk checking chase gift card, tiny MS, international wires, wall-mart BP
108 - TTnc4me (105 actually) no info
117 - rodsren
129 - Kybosh chase gift card checking
146 - mintcilantro - checking 6k/month MS, BB payments from another ss#, some MO/AP, 7new cards in 90days, short cycling
165 - newcomr - checking
182 - thehawk75 - heavy MSw/other banks,
212 - LRD - 2x spend of 20k /month (on two cards), checking
221 - iceman 77_7, no info
222 - jk2 no info
232 - hitman1420 checking , heavy MS activity (no number)
235 - clearlyanewb checking, MS activity (10k AGC and more), light credit history, 10 recent inquiries
262 - brc01 - shortcycling, some MS (18k/month over a few cards), 1
272 - rambo - 70% MS on 5 cards, WM BP of 16k/month on 5 cards
281 - prestonv - heavy MS - 20k/month on multiple chase cards, heavy WMBP (ink stayed open)
326 - pacupgo - false alarm, no shutdown
364 - edh101985 - tiny MS (bonus only) , 4 chase cards in 6 months,
410 - msetr - lots of freedom/ink ms
411 - standaman360 - international wires (business), million dollar balances,
428 - queensgambit - gambling transactions, UR point transfer from SO, 5 chase apps 3 new chase cc in 45 days, Blogger points coach
475 - dogloverjb - checking, international wires,
477 - ftomasz - 14 inquiries in 8 months, 5 chase, minimal MS, rapid upswing in credit, paying from multiple accounts
482 - liw5215 - Heavy MS, re-entered after 13 months
513 - thegasguru - checking, $3k/month MO to checking, NO MS, AP,
552 - LAXtoWorld - 3 cards in 30 days
586 - adavydov7 checking, $1k APs,
648 - CMHFlyerOH - checking, MO, 3k gift cards
656 - I can see for miles - Maxed UR 5x rewards on Freedom and Ink cards. Chased closed all accounts. Was approved for Ritz Carlton card 14 months later and did nothing unusual with it, other than lower CL from 30K to 10K to free up CL for possible approvals. Two subsequent Chase apps (Chase Ink and Marriott Rewards), on separate dates 3+ months later, were declined for a "previous unsatisfactory relationship ..."
662 - frogdog51 - Chase VGCs (Reapproved in 12 months)
677 - Subdawg - closed for piggybacking
714 - Mamibear - 'abuse' redcard MS
718 - maxswanson - MS, 11 chase cards, traded UR, (reapproved after 12 months)
752 - peaser - "reputational risk" associated with the business (decision reversed later)
757 - uncommonsensical checking, 3 Cashier's Check deposits with quick w/d (the w/d were to pay CHASE credit cards! ridiculous 'loss prevention' dept. gods). All CC's closed 2 days later. Tried EX Office- they seem to have zero power once the Mullah in loss prevention has issued a fatwa (my guess: some 27 year old with a god complex).
762 - knopfler - checking closed (all credit cards closed in both mine and Mrs. Knopflers accounts about three weeks after checking closure)
771 - milemonkey - 'reputational Risk" connected to Attorney General lawsuit
784 - unstable one: 2 cash deposits over 10k to chase checking
815 - dukerau - one time UR point sale, 77% spending is 5x,
Chase closed my credit card account(s) [Archived 2013-mid 2019]
Dec 17, 2015, 3:04 pm
#1051
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 304
I did not read all 70 pages of posts on this thread, but wanted to add a little something. If someone already mentioned this I apologize.
If Chase, or any other issuer for that matter, cut me off and jeopardized any amount of points I accrued, I would immediately initiate arbitration. I would make sure they knew it would cost them 5 figures to take my points. Arbitration is very expensive and the bank has to pay almost every penny even if the consumer loses.
If Chase, or any other issuer for that matter, cut me off and jeopardized any amount of points I accrued, I would immediately initiate arbitration. I would make sure they knew it would cost them 5 figures to take my points. Arbitration is very expensive and the bank has to pay almost every penny even if the consumer loses.
Dec 17, 2015, 6:26 pm
#1052
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,072
Arbitration is probably more costly for the consumer. Banks have staff attorneys; most consumers don't.
Dec 17, 2015, 7:18 pm
#1053
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 304
I have gone down that path before and it was comical how fast the bank gave up.
Read the costs section:
http://info.adr.org/consumer-arbitration/
Dec 17, 2015, 7:19 pm
#1054
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 559
i think getting chase cards are the most easiest . i have got 5 apps in past 2 months before chase sw apps.
I have completed my sw card spends and waiting for CP and know decided to sock draw it, since 2% cards is more beneficiary than sw points.
Dec 17, 2015, 7:36 pm
#1055
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,072
Arbitration costs nothing to the consumer except for perhaps a $200 initiation fee and most of the time the bank is required to reimburse you. Arbitration costs banks a small fortune and threat of even initiating it is likely to have them capitulate. More than likely they will give you back your 200,000 points to avoid paying AAA $10,000.
I have gone down that path before and it was comical how fast the bank gave up.
Read the costs section:
http://info.adr.org/consumer-arbitration/
I have gone down that path before and it was comical how fast the bank gave up.
Read the costs section:
http://info.adr.org/consumer-arbitration/
Granted, the disputes under $10,000 seem to be low-cost for the consumer, but they're probably low-cost for the bank as well, given the teams of attorneys they have on staff.
Dec 17, 2015, 7:50 pm
#1056
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 304
This is probably off-topic for this thread, so I won't reply further, but that same page says consumers only win about half the time and that they're awarded attorneys' fees about 70 percent of the time, which suggests many if not most of the winners are paying for an attorney.
I don't think I have communicated the true value of consumer arbitration. It is not about who wins or loses once it has commenced. The banks are not going to spend tens of thousands of dollars arbitrating a $1,000 point dispute. So if you have a dispute with a bank that has an arb clause in it, you initiate arbitration. They will look at the dollar amount of the dispute and if it is materially less than the arbitration fees, they will most likely settle.
The 70% number you cited is only valid in those instances in which both parties went through the process. Also, unless the contract has a specific clause for attorney's fees, the bank can't ask for them. The consumer can, but the bank can't.
The banks pay a price for precluding you from joining class action suits.
Dec 17, 2015, 8:12 pm
#1057
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,072
Oops ... I thought we were in the "Applying for Chase cards ..." thread. This is definitely on-topic for this one.
I agree with what you said in #1056; I just haven't seen much evidence that banks are messing with the small M$ fish. From what I've seen here and elsewhere, the people being shut down are almost always people who are clearly gaming the system in a big way.
Frankly, I'm surprised shutdowns aren't more common. Just today, I saw a guy talking about getting a new $5,000 CC and then buying $5,000 in gift cards on Day 1. Seems crazy, but I guess people get away with it more often than they don't.
I agree with what you said in #1056; I just haven't seen much evidence that banks are messing with the small M$ fish. From what I've seen here and elsewhere, the people being shut down are almost always people who are clearly gaming the system in a big way.
Frankly, I'm surprised shutdowns aren't more common. Just today, I saw a guy talking about getting a new $5,000 CC and then buying $5,000 in gift cards on Day 1. Seems crazy, but I guess people get away with it more often than they don't.
Dec 17, 2015, 8:53 pm
#1058
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,760
Arbitration costs nothing to the consumer except for perhaps a $200 initiation fee and most of the time the bank is required to reimburse you. Arbitration costs banks a small fortune and threat of even initiating it is likely to have them capitulate. More than likely they will give you back your 200,000 points to avoid paying AAA $10,000.
I have gone down that path before and it was comical how fast the bank gave up.
Read the costs section:
http://info.adr.org/consumer-arbitration/
I have gone down that path before and it was comical how fast the bank gave up.
Read the costs section:
http://info.adr.org/consumer-arbitration/
Dec 18, 2015, 3:30 am
#1059
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 304
So if the card agreement has the arb clause, when the bank closed your card and confiscated your points, it is better to go thru the arb than to file claim at the small claims court? From what have been posted over the years, most went the small claims court route and many, if not all, the banks chose to settle before court date. In a few cases the bank lost, or the bank even did not settle before hand but failed to show up so the consumer won by default. There is at least one case reported in either this thread or similar thread that the bank lost and its attorney was stunned by the outcome.
All of that being said, it looks as if this strategy does not apply to anyone who opened an account after 2010. I looked into it this morning and the arb clause was removed from Chase's agreements in 2010. This really would only apply to those who had accounts open before then. Small claims would be the only option for those who are bound by an agreement after 2010.
Dec 18, 2015, 8:16 am
#1060
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,207
The arbitration discussion, while interesting, seems to no longer be necessary when it comes to Chase. All of the shut down reports Ive heard from the last 3 months or so have stated Chase has given them 30 days to transfer or redeem their points.
As for the comment about banks not going after small fish, that's not necessarily true. Some data points have some pretty low MS numbers, and even those who MS a lot generally don't keep high values in accounts, so Id be surprised if someone had more than a couple k in their accounts when shut down. So under 10K is not small fish...
As for the comment about banks not going after small fish, that's not necessarily true. Some data points have some pretty low MS numbers, and even those who MS a lot generally don't keep high values in accounts, so Id be surprised if someone had more than a couple k in their accounts when shut down. So under 10K is not small fish...
Dec 18, 2015, 12:01 pm
#1061
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 29,760
Yes. I would have gone to ARB before small claims. The filing fee for small claims is generally higher than the consumer arb fee. Arb fees charged to a bank are separate and exclusive from lawyer fees. They can rack up quickly and banks do not like to pay them on small disputes. Also rules of consumer arb are much more user friendly and you are less likely to have your case tossed from a procedural error.
All of that being said, it looks as if this strategy does not apply to anyone who opened an account after 2010. I looked into it this morning and the arb clause was removed from Chase's agreements in 2010. This really would only apply to those who had accounts open before then. Small claims would be the only option for those who are bound by an agreement after 2010.
All of that being said, it looks as if this strategy does not apply to anyone who opened an account after 2010. I looked into it this morning and the arb clause was removed from Chase's agreements in 2010. This really would only apply to those who had accounts open before then. Small claims would be the only option for those who are bound by an agreement after 2010.
On the Citi closure thread, it also seems SMC is the only avenue. Could very well be the same situation as the Chase cards.
Yes, I know someone whose SMC claim was thrown out on procedure issue but he was able to refile and eventually won by default because Citi did not show up on court date. Yet he still had to contact Citi to get what was owed him plus interest as Citi never sent it automatically after court ruling.
Dec 18, 2015, 2:03 pm
#1062
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 304
That would explain why people on this long thread have to go to SMC instead.
On the Citi closure thread, it also seems SMC is the only avenue. Could very well be the same situation as the Chase cards.
Yes, I know someone whose SMC claim was thrown out on procedure issue but he was able to refile and eventually won by default because Citi did not show up on court date. Yet he still had to contact Citi to get what was owed him plus interest as Citi never sent it automatically after court ruling.
On the Citi closure thread, it also seems SMC is the only avenue. Could very well be the same situation as the Chase cards.
Yes, I know someone whose SMC claim was thrown out on procedure issue but he was able to refile and eventually won by default because Citi did not show up on court date. Yet he still had to contact Citi to get what was owed him plus interest as Citi never sent it automatically after court ruling.
Citi does have a small claims clause though. They have this to avoid going to arb for small amounts of money. If the amount in dispute falls within small claims amounts, it has to be litigated in small claims court.
If I were to be in a position where I was trying to claw back a couple of hundred thousand points, I would file for Arb claiming that the value of the points far exceeded a small claims court. If they disagree, well we would arbitrate that issue before even arbitrating the points. By the time we got to the points they would have written a check to JAMS for $10,000. Remember the banks pay all fees! Not lawyer fees, arbitration fees which are much more expensive than lawyer bills.
I have done this before. I had a dispute with a bank a few years back and they filed a lawsuit against me in small claims court. My response simply was a motion to compel arbitration with JAMS pursuant to our contract. They dismissed with prejudice immediately because if it went to a ruling, they would have to cough up about a $2500 retainer to JAMS or be in breach of contract. They were looking at a rather large JAMS bill.
Arbitration gives you leverage over any bank dumb enough to include it their contract.
Dec 21, 2015, 5:07 pm
#1063
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: NYC suburbs
Programs: UA LT Gold (BIS), AA LT Plat (CC SUBs & BD), Hilton Dia (CC), Hyatt Glob (BIB), et. al.
Posts: 3,290
NY Times 3 part series about Arbitration, Oct/Nov 2015:
Part 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/bu...tice.html?_r=0
Part 2: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/bu...ce-system.html
Part 3: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/bu...le-of-law.html
Part 1: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/01/bu...tice.html?_r=0
Part 2: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/02/bu...ce-system.html
Part 3: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/bu...le-of-law.html
Over the last 10 years, thousands of businesses across the country — from big corporations to storefront shops — have used arbitration to create an alternate system of justice. There, rules tend to favor businesses, and judges and juries have been replaced by arbitrators who commonly consider the companies their clients, The Times found.
But in interviews with The Times, more than three dozen arbitrators described how they felt beholden to companies. Beneath every decision, the arbitrators said, was the threat of losing business.
Fearful of losing business, some arbitrators pass around the story of Stefan M. Mason as a cautionary tale. They say Mr. Mason ruled in favor of an employee in an age discrimination suit, awarding him $1.7 million, and was never hired to hear another employment case.
Dec 22, 2015, 11:48 am
#1064
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 4,166
Exactly. The bank pays the arbiter, so whose side do you think they will be on? They have a financial motivation to see in favor of the one handing them money.
Dec 22, 2015, 12:43 pm
#1065
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 304
Here are the headlines folks....
1)Bank does something you don't think is right.
2)You send them a notice to initiate arbitration.
3)They call you and ask what it would take to stop you from going to arb. Then you settle.
The point. is not whether or not you think you will win in arb.
What is sort of funny is that some banks require 30 day notice before filing with JAMS or AAA. They don't always say how you provide the written notice. After being jerked around by a phone company, I provided them with the 30 day notice to commence arbitration on their Facebook page. I received a call that day and the issue was resolved by sundown.