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Chase Closed My Sapphire Account & Took the UR Points...HELP!

Chase Closed My Sapphire Account & Took the UR Points...HELP!

Old Jan 16, 13, 12:39 pm
  #16  
 
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I'm quite lost with all of this...

So the issue is that he deposited money in the ATM and then used that money to pay off his credit cards?

I spend thousands of dollars a week for work and get reimbursed via check every 2 weeks...I deposit that check in the bank and then pay down my balance...what is the difference between what I do and what OP did?
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Old Jan 16, 13, 12:43 pm
  #17  
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Originally Posted by Slybone View Post
... he deposited money ... I spend thousands of dollars a week for work and get reimbursed via check every 2 weeks......what is the difference between what I do and what OP did?
You are depositing checks, the OP deposited currency.
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Old Jan 16, 13, 12:49 pm
  #18  
 
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Originally Posted by mia View Post
You are depositing checks, the OP deposited currency.
Oh I see, so the issue here is that he COULD tell the ATM he is depositing 10k but really only deposit 5k, and then would call to credit his CC 10k before the bank is able to open the ATM and verify that he actually put 10k into the ATM?? I can see how the bank finds that sketchy...Or am I just off this conversation completely?
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Old Jan 16, 13, 1:00 pm
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Slybone View Post
Oh I see, so the issue here is that he COULD tell the ATM ...
That's one possibility, but some Chase ATM's scan and count the currency. The real issue seems to be running afoul of anti-money-laundering regulations that discourage currency transactions which do not have the same type of audit trail as checks.

As in many Flyertalk threads much of what you read is speculative. Not everything will make sense, because some of it is incorrect or based on different assumptions.

Last edited by mia; Jan 16, 13 at 2:49 pm Reason: Add link to Chase scanning ATM ad.
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Old Jan 16, 13, 2:28 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by Slybone View Post
Oh I see, so the issue here is that he COULD tell the ATM he is depositing 10k but really only deposit 5k, and then would call to credit his CC 10k before the bank is able to open the ATM and verify that he actually put 10k into the ATM?? I can see how the bank finds that sketchy...Or am I just off this conversation completely?
Originally Posted by phdtomd View Post
If I were a bank I would be afraid of some sort of kiting scheme. When you deposit at an ATM and not in the presence of a teller the bank is trusting that you are depositing the correct amount. In essence, until they go through the deposits how would they know if you "deposited" $10,0000 or $1,000. What they do know is that you are immediately transferring funds that technically aren't verified to pay off a card that is over drawn. Just my thoughts on the matter.
My thoughts exactly
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Old Jan 16, 13, 5:28 pm
  #21  
 
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Even though I know Chase likes to close credit card accounts and takes points away (not in my case), your issue is really new I have ever heard.
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Old Jan 16, 13, 6:28 pm
  #22  
 
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Am I understanding this right in that they closed his checking account 6-7 months later? His deposits were in June July. Also, there seems to be some confusion as to why they closed his checking account when he mentions he received a letter from compliance specifically telling him.
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Old Jan 16, 13, 8:27 pm
  #23  
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Originally Posted by ttlax View Post
If your cash deposits added up to more than $10,000 over a period of a few days (like 4k every 4 days) that screams money laundering. That is a red flag for any financial institution or brokerage firm or custodian. It's possible you were flagged for that and they acted on it.
+1 - Banks are much more risk conscious than in the past. Completing and filing SAR's is expensive and banks get examined by their regulators for compliance and pay huge fines when they screw up.

Simply put, OP's business pattern raises money laundering & check kiting red flags and that's a risk no bank wants to take any more.

Bigger issue for OP going forward is that if SAR's were filed, other banks are going to be much less willing to do any business: checking, CC, mortgage with him.
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Old Jan 16, 13, 8:36 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Pinolero View Post
Am I understanding this right in that they closed his checking account 6-7 months later? His deposits were in June July. Also, there seems to be some confusion as to why they closed his checking account when he mentions he received a letter from compliance specifically telling him.
Deposits were in June/July. Got a call from compliance in October asking what they were about. I explained, said I can offer you documentation on the money trail if you'd like and was not taken up on that offer. Got a letter in Nov. stating they were closing the checking and savings account and I had a month to get my affairs in order. Checking account closed 12/17, CC closed 1/4/13.

The cash was deposited in one of those fancy new NCR machines that take 50 bills at once and scan them, so that (most likely) isn't an issue.

I doubt an SAR was filed...I just got approved by Amex for a sizeable credit line today. Oh well, more SPG and MR points for me!
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Old Jan 17, 13, 7:07 am
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
+1 - Banks are much more risk conscious than in the past. Completing and filing SAR's is expensive and banks get examined by their regulators for compliance and pay huge fines when they screw up.

Simply put, OP's business pattern raises money laundering & check kiting red flags and that's a risk no bank wants to take any more.

Bigger issue for OP going forward is that if SAR's were filed, other banks are going to be much less willing to do any business: checking, CC, mortgage with him.
No one, including the OP will know if an SAR has been filed unless the US attorney who has jurisdiction decides to open an investigation. Even at that point it would probably remain confidential until a decision is made whether or not to pursue the matter.
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Old Jan 17, 13, 9:34 am
  #26  
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Originally Posted by SCEflyer View Post
No one, including the OP will know if an SAR has been filed unless the US attorney who has jurisdiction decides to open an investigation. Even at that point it would probably remain confidential until a decision is made whether or not to pursue the matter.
Never suggested that anyone will tell OP that a SAR was filed. Simply that his conduct is exactly what would cause a SAR to be filed and that, given their cost, unless you're a good customer, least risk is to "fire" the customer and be done with the risk.
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Old Jan 17, 13, 11:24 am
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
Never suggested that anyone will tell OP that a SAR was filed. Simply that his conduct is exactly what would cause a SAR to be filed and that, given their cost, unless you're a good customer, least risk is to "fire" the customer and be done with the risk.
Good point.

Based on stories I was told and the incident of this thread, it seems late night after hour large sum cash deposits is a sure thing to raise red flag. The consequences may not come immediately but somehow a few months down the road, out of the blue, an account closure. They all have a common thread of prior unusual events - large sum of cash deposits at ATM after hour, and the funds were immediately used to pay bills whether it was a Chase card or other cards.

There is probably more than the burden of SAR but also the unwanted behavior of moving funds in at last minute to cover bills - a sign the banks may view the customer's financial health is under stress.

Go over to the AMEX forum there are enough threads about folks who charged up a storm and paid frequently even on time and ahead of time, would still raise red flags with AMEX which in turn asked the customers to show proof of Liquid Assets as proof of ability to pay, in the sum of several times more than the charges. Banks are very weary on potential defaults and may be based on statistics, such patterns often preceding a large default.
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Old Jan 17, 13, 12:03 pm
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
...unless you're a good customer, least risk is to "fire" the customer and be done with the risk.
Agreed, Chase does not appear to need this type of business:

...low interest rates also present a challenge for JPMorgan, which is dealing with a glut of deposits. The bank reported average total deposits of $404 billion, up 10 percent from the fourth quarter of 2011.

As deposits pile up, the situation is weighing on profitability. The margin on deposits continued to shrink, dropping to 2.44 percent from 2.76 percent the period a year earlier.
-- http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/01/...to-5-7-billion
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Old Jan 17, 13, 10:45 pm
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Originally Posted by Happy View Post
Good point.

Based on stories I was told and the incident of this thread, it seems late night after hour large sum cash deposits is a sure thing to raise red flag. The consequences may not come immediately but somehow a few months down the road, out of the blue, an account closure. They all have a common thread of prior unusual events - large sum of cash deposits at ATM after hour, and the funds were immediately used to pay bills whether it was a Chase card or other cards.

There is probably more than the burden of SAR but also the unwanted behavior of moving funds in at last minute to cover bills - a sign the banks may view the customer's financial health is under stress.

Go over to the AMEX forum there are enough threads about folks who charged up a storm and paid frequently even on time and ahead of time, would still raise red flags with AMEX which in turn asked the customers to show proof of Liquid Assets as proof of ability to pay, in the sum of several times more than the charges. Banks are very weary on potential defaults and may be based on statistics, such patterns often preceding a large default.

Very disturbing theory for people who make frequent legitimate large cash deposits at all and any hour. Instead of a check I request to be reimbursed by cash for business expenses which can sometimes be a few K. Sometimes I deposit it as late as 10pm on the way home from the office. Time to start requesting checks like normal people and playing the 6 months wait and see what happens to my account game.
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Old Jan 17, 13, 11:56 pm
  #30  
 
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If you're collecting lots of cash and making nightly deposits at certain times of the years for business purposes, then make sure you have a business account, and actually use it - float enough money in there that you don't need phone calls to be made so your CC can have charges made to it.

Remember... without fees, the banks have to make money somewhere. If you're expecting them to do everything for you, including operate ATM machines, retail locations with staff who spend time on your account, etc., then they will have to make money one way or another. This can either happen through loaning out your money to earn more interest than they pay you, or they can charge you regular fees. If you don't maintain a balance, you won't have money that they can loan out at all, and it doesn't sound like you have an account that charges other fees that make up for it. I realize that according to the rules and everything else that can be cited factually, this is not an issue, but it's probably easier for them to close your account for suspicious activity than others, because they don't even make money on you. It's not worth their time to reconsider you.

You're doing a great job at managing your cash to earn interest at the largest amounts at your credit unions. You may want to check if they can be more accommodating to your needs unless you're willing to work on terms favorable to Chase - they're in business to turn a profit.

If you want to work with another bank and they don't have the best interest rates, just cough it up as a cost of doing business when you make a larger deposit. Maybe it means keeping $20-50k in there depending on how large these conferences are, but the lost interest is only $200-500. The time/effort/headaches/etc. caused by Chase closing your account isn't worth saving $200-$500/year based on what I think is a very good business you're operating. Focus on that, because selling an extra ticket at a conference will probably cover that expense of some lost interest.
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