Best credit card coversion rate to Asiamiles in 2009? (For FTers based in HK)
Jan 13, 2011, 5:56 am
#541
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Both Global Payments and HSBC China in China? This is awfully confusing. Surely there's some anti-compete saying HSBC China (WOFE) shouldn't compete with Global Payments Asia-Pacific (JV) in the same market.
And it seems Global Payments is fine (you: PRC message. Me: Hyatt Taipei)
HSBC will be motivated to rip you off even if it is both issuer and acquirer. If you refuse DCC, Visa earns 1% and HSBC 0.95% (you save 1-2%). If you DCC, HSBC earns the entire 3-4% markup.
Well it is global payment but for me they are basically the same **** (and ......, from me as a online merchant)
Si never encounter a HSBC China card machine yet.
Originally Posted by percysmith
It is china merchant bank.
Last time I did a Visa at a massage place and they are using HSBC Global Payment, got DCC, selected RMB and works perfectly.
(well I used hsbc advance plat because of discount if my memory is not broken, and they have NO EXCUSE for DCC kick in I guess)
For Japan, as JCB is so dominant and Amex is processed by JCB, I don't expect a single problem from them.
Last time I did a Visa at a massage place and they are using HSBC Global Payment, got DCC, selected RMB and works perfectly.
(well I used hsbc advance plat because of discount if my memory is not broken, and they have NO EXCUSE for DCC kick in I guess)
For Japan, as JCB is so dominant and Amex is processed by JCB, I don't expect a single problem from them.
And it seems Global Payments is fine (you: PRC message. Me: Hyatt Taipei)
HSBC will be motivated to rip you off even if it is both issuer and acquirer. If you refuse DCC, Visa earns 1% and HSBC 0.95% (you save 1-2%). If you DCC, HSBC earns the entire 3-4% markup.
Si never encounter a HSBC China card machine yet.
Jan 13, 2011, 6:10 am
#542
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For reference, I've only encountered HSBC China as acquirer (in Shanghai) at the main Apple Store in Shanghai (well, it IS right next to the HSBC building, no surprises there) and at that one Secret Recipe (Yes, I know, the slip spelled it wrong). Most other places have BoC (NO, NO, NO, run the other way if you see a merchant using them for Visa/MC acquiring) or some other entity do the processing. This is the first I've heard of CMB as an EDIT:Visa/MC acquirer (So the total now is three banks as well as whatever happens when they just run all cards through the UnionPay terminal). I just realized that I have seen CMB as an acquirer for UnionPay cards many times but never have I seen a CMB acquirer terminal used for non-UnionPay cards, let alone DCC transactions. So I'd be curious to see how the DCC slip looks compared to a regular UnionPay transaction.
I'm also curious about the Global Payments one too.
Also, what Japanese restaurant is that? I'd make a point of being careful there (or not going).
I'm also curious about the Global Payments one too.
Also, what Japanese restaurant is that? I'd make a point of being careful there (or not going).
Last edited by jamar; Jan 13, 2011 at 6:16 am
Jan 13, 2011, 6:11 am
#543
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shall i reiterate:
even when they printed the carbon slip WITHOUT choice they can still pick hte right one. if they cant, tell them to call the card center. bring the case outside of the table so your colleague does not see the situation tho. However i can see a big undertable deal going around as it is all so common in this corrupted place so perhaps you really cant do much. just slip in a few fake bills.
i had the "no option" carbon slip in macau, all they had to do was to reverse it and do it right.
i bet they benefit from DCC cuz there is no way they realized things has changed all of a sudden where foreigners dont pay local currency anymore.
At least, in Harrods (London) i was always offered the option before they run the slip. In Taipei the option was listed on thermal and I figured all i really need to make sure the shop knows which to choose. In macau (carbon), i had to get the stupid shop to reverse the DCC and get the right one in.
I havent done it in china yet, and is my principle not to go to china: fortunately if i ever had work trips, my boss will need to give me a visa (NOT CC)... if i ever had trips out of HK that is.
even when they printed the carbon slip WITHOUT choice they can still pick hte right one. if they cant, tell them to call the card center. bring the case outside of the table so your colleague does not see the situation tho. However i can see a big undertable deal going around as it is all so common in this corrupted place so perhaps you really cant do much. just slip in a few fake bills.
i had the "no option" carbon slip in macau, all they had to do was to reverse it and do it right.
i bet they benefit from DCC cuz there is no way they realized things has changed all of a sudden where foreigners dont pay local currency anymore.
At least, in Harrods (London) i was always offered the option before they run the slip. In Taipei the option was listed on thermal and I figured all i really need to make sure the shop knows which to choose. In macau (carbon), i had to get the stupid shop to reverse the DCC and get the right one in.
I havent done it in china yet, and is my principle not to go to china: fortunately if i ever had work trips, my boss will need to give me a visa (NOT CC)... if i ever had trips out of HK that is.
Jan 13, 2011, 6:13 am
#544
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You said you're going to be able to claim the amount back right?
What's your company's policy if you incurred the amount directly in RMB? If they allow you to use the daily BBG/Oanda/PBOC/HKAB rate or your RMB cash exchange rate (e.g. your HK ATM RMB withdrawal slip), then wouldn't using BoC Dual Currency Unionpay be better to avoid a recurrence of DCC?
At least you still get RMB12/mile with that.
And as defeatist as it sounds, CDCC (Compulsory DCC or Chinese DCC) is here to stay. We don't have the time to fight it on the spot (esp for "with others" card payments), and fighting it with our card issuer is a pain.
Card issuer is Fubon I guess? See how responsive they are, keep us updated pls.
Jan 13, 2011, 6:22 am
#545
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For a certain HSBC China terminal (there seem to be two types; the one I've encountered prints thermal slips but there seems to be another that does carbon copies; anyway I only speak for the one I see) the DCC procedure is "Swipe the card, type in RMB amount, and push "enter" twice". As far as they knew they were pulling RMB out of my card.
Jan 13, 2011, 6:26 am
#546
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even when they printed the carbon slip WITHOUT choice they can still pick hte right one. if they cant, tell them to call the card center. bring the case outside of the table so your colleague does not see the situation tho.
i had the "no option" carbon slip in macau, all they had to do was to reverse it and do it right.
i had the "no option" carbon slip in macau, all they had to do was to reverse it and do it right.
Just because you had a good experience in Macau and I had a good experience in Taipei, you can't assume the same experience happens everywhere. These are two very detailed step-by-step accounts of FTers trying to reject DCC in Shanghai and Beijing respectively - they *did* attempt your "reverse it and do it right" *and much more*
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...scam-6.html#77
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/china...-off-3.html#37
Jan 13, 2011, 6:31 am
#547
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From the two links above, some Chinese merchants' cashiers do spend a lot of time trying to find out what's going on.
Jan 13, 2011, 6:34 am
#548
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You said you're going to be able to claim the amount back right?
What's your company's policy if you incurred the amount directly in RMB? If they allow you to use the daily BBG/Oanda/PBOC/HKAB rate or your RMB cash exchange rate (e.g. your HK ATM RMB withdrawal slip), then wouldn't using BoC Dual Currency Unionpay be better to avoid a recurrence of DCC?
At least you still get RMB12/mile with that.
And as defeatist as it sounds, CDCC (Compulsory DCC or Chinese DCC) is here to stay. We don't have the time to fight it on the spot (esp for "with others" card payments), and fighting it with our card issuer is a pain.
Card issuer is Fubon I guess? See how responsive they are, keep us updated pls.
What's your company's policy if you incurred the amount directly in RMB? If they allow you to use the daily BBG/Oanda/PBOC/HKAB rate or your RMB cash exchange rate (e.g. your HK ATM RMB withdrawal slip), then wouldn't using BoC Dual Currency Unionpay be better to avoid a recurrence of DCC?
At least you still get RMB12/mile with that.
And as defeatist as it sounds, CDCC (Compulsory DCC or Chinese DCC) is here to stay. We don't have the time to fight it on the spot (esp for "with others" card payments), and fighting it with our card issuer is a pain.
Card issuer is Fubon I guess? See how responsive they are, keep us updated pls.
If it's cash you have multiple option, 1 is to point it your exchange invoice rate (and they will pay the whatever transaction fee), or you can just point it to the same CC FX rate (it's tiny money that they won't really chase me on it).
BTW, if it is RMB12 to 1 miles, why not I just take the bullet and do HKD 6 to 1 miles ?
12 RMB = 14.64 HKD (DCC rate) = 2.44 miles using fubon (1.44 miles more)
12 RMB = 14.27 HKD (HangSeng Bank FX rate today, as you paid in RMB)
Difference is 0.37 for 1.44 miles, which is OK for me.......
(and again, it's not my money
)
Last edited by ChrisLi; Jan 13, 2011 at 6:42 am
Jan 13, 2011, 6:35 am
#549
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As I mentioned in the China forum when I encountered this:
For a certain HSBC China terminal (there seem to be two types; the one I've encountered prints thermal slips but there seems to be another that does carbon copies; anyway I only speak for the one I see) the DCC procedure is "Swipe the card, type in RMB amount, and push "enter" twice". As far as they knew they were pulling RMB out of my card.
For a certain HSBC China terminal (there seem to be two types; the one I've encountered prints thermal slips but there seems to be another that does carbon copies; anyway I only speak for the one I see) the DCC procedure is "Swipe the card, type in RMB amount, and push "enter" twice". As far as they knew they were pulling RMB out of my card.
Even in my case, (when I called to ask about it, sincerely promising not to dispute my previous stay) my cashier at least bothered to walk back to her hotel's accounting office to ask if they can switch it off for future visits, she came back with a no.
Jan 13, 2011, 6:39 am
#550
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Crossing out doesn't avoid the processing. You still have to dispute.
http://www.nationwide.co.uk/mediacen...tsheet1105.pdf
"Signature slips or bills where DCC has been applied may have a statement on them to the effect of “I accept that I have been offered a choice of currencies for payment. I accept the conversion rate and final amount. I understand that the choice of transaction currency is final.” If a choice hasn’t been offered and therefore the statement is false then a customer is within their rights not to sign the slip or bill. Altering the slip or bill however, such as crossing out the statement and amount in sterling, will not prevent the transaction being processed in sterling."
http://www.nationwide.co.uk/mediacen...tsheet1105.pdf
"Signature slips or bills where DCC has been applied may have a statement on them to the effect of “I accept that I have been offered a choice of currencies for payment. I accept the conversion rate and final amount. I understand that the choice of transaction currency is final.” If a choice hasn’t been offered and therefore the statement is false then a customer is within their rights not to sign the slip or bill. Altering the slip or bill however, such as crossing out the statement and amount in sterling, will not prevent the transaction being processed in sterling."
Jan 13, 2011, 6:47 am
#551
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My company policy on Oversea expense is basically abiding to what CC company says. If CC company say 1:1.18 then it is 1:1.18, they just reimburse what I pay (well this is what reimburse means!)
If it's cash you have multiple option, 1 is to point it your exchange invoice rate (and they will pay the whatever transaction fee), or you can just point it to the same CC FX rate (it's tiny money that they won't really chase me on it).
BTW, if it is RMB12 to 1 miles, why not I just take the bullet and do HKD 6 to 1 miles ?
12 RMB = 14.64 HKD (DCC rate) = 2.44 miles using fubon (1.44 miles more)
12 RMB = 14.44 HKD (Estimated card rate, 1.18 note rate +2% CC)
Difference is 0.2 for 1.44 miles, which is OK for me.......
If it's cash you have multiple option, 1 is to point it your exchange invoice rate (and they will pay the whatever transaction fee), or you can just point it to the same CC FX rate (it's tiny money that they won't really chase me on it).
BTW, if it is RMB12 to 1 miles, why not I just take the bullet and do HKD 6 to 1 miles ?
12 RMB = 14.64 HKD (DCC rate) = 2.44 miles using fubon (1.44 miles more)
12 RMB = 14.44 HKD (Estimated card rate, 1.18 note rate +2% CC)
Difference is 0.2 for 1.44 miles, which is OK for me.......
Dual Currency Card doesn't have the 2%. You incur charges in RMB and settle in RMB currency, which means whatever your cost of acquiring RMB notes is (such as note rate). In fact my current RMB strategy is SCB AE, followed by Dual Currency and cash. If I can do Dual Currency but not AE, I use Dual Currency, deposit my RMB notes back at BoCHK and use the balance to settle Dual Currency.
Your DCC surcharge is 3.39% (14.64/12/1.18 - 1 = 1.22/1.18 - 1)
It doesn't justify an extra 1 mile per RMB/HKD 12 for me (roughly worth 0.83%)
Of course if your company bears it
Jan 13, 2011, 7:02 am
#552
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Even in my case, (when I called to ask about it, sincerely promising not to dispute my previous stay) my cashier at least bothered to walk back to her hotel's accounting office to ask if they can switch it off for future visits, she came back with a no.
Jan 13, 2011, 7:09 am
#553
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In my case with the HSBC machine there was an OPTOUT option uncovered by pressing the "Clear" key pre-transaction, and I wonder if that's what its purpose is for. But it's locked out and requires an "administrator passcode". When I pointed it out I was told that no one working there knew the code. And afterwards, I still don't know if they got the passcode after calling HSBC, and if they did, if they activated the OPTOUT (since I wasn't there in the final stages of handling that little issue, as I said in the China forum, I have no clue).
Jan 13, 2011, 8:14 am
#554
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Concierges - do you mind having one that only responds 24 hrs after request, or are you a person that needs requests filled in 3 hrs (or within the next hour?)? If you don't mind waiting 24 hrs for answers, Visa Plat concierge that comes with any Plat card (e.g. your Premiermiles) gives out reasonably quality answers. Amex is fast but very shallow, and you need the Plat Cred at least to get them to look up things for you.
(Don't ask either to do things that you can't do yourself tho. I am really looking for a Quintessentially-like service in HK that can do things like get scalped tix for sold out events like Qingming Riverside - something neither Amex nor Visa has offered to do).
Miles - are you after any type of miles other than Asia Miles?
If Asia Miles only, see http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...hk-10.html#144
If you don't want to carry around a lot of cards, I suggest just waiting until February to see if Fubon Bank will extend their 2X on everything offer (current expiry date: 28 Feb 11 http://www.fubonbank.com.hk/web/html/cc_cbp00_e.html). If yes, that gives you $6/mile on retail and bill payment, $3/mile overseas (but be careful of merchant-initiated Dynamic Currency Conversion since it's a Visa - SCB AE is better for overseas)
Do you travel much to China? Not only is Visa acceptance there poor, but there are more DCC use in China than elsewhere. Get BoCHK Dual Currency CUP card for China use (RMB12/mile).
Priority Pass – your hubby has one cos he has PB VI. If you want to keep yours, you need either Plat Charge or CX Amex.
CX Amex is free for first year and annual fee waived waived if you have Plat Charge or Plat Credit thereafter. If you’re aggressive, you can cut the Plat Charge and Plat Cred and only have the CX Amex for one year, and apply for Plat Cred back when you need the CX Amex renewed.
Note that Plat Cred fees are $1,600 for first year and $800 thereafter ($1,600 charged and $800 rebated in supermarket coupons), but the first year welcome offer comes with 500,000 Membership Reward points which can be exchanged for 33,333 miles.
I'm not sure how you can get your parents Priority Passes by giving them supplementary cards (short of Amex Centurion supplementary). However Citibank Premiermiles supplementary already gets them into HK's.
Insurance – I won’t rely on the CX Amex or Plat Cred insurance, it only covers travelling (not mishaps overseas), plus you must pay for the tickets by CX Amex/Plat Cred in order to benefit from the coverage.
Your hubby’s PB VI insurance is marginally acceptable, cos it covers travelling and medical expenses incurred abroad (short of dying abroad whilst not travelling). The only downer again is that you must pay for your travel by PB VI in order to benefit from the coverage.
Amex Plat Charge is like having you, your Hubby and other supplementary cardholders’ stand-alone year-round insurance policy – you’re covered as soon as you leave HK until you get back, and Amex doesn’t care how you pay (higher limits if you do, but the non-Amex limit is already 1M for medical). If you travel a lot, this is a place where you get your $5,500 fee back.
P.S. if you're getting turned on by Shacom's 125 miles/$5,000 tax paid repaid (http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...ow.php?id=4489), you need to see Dah Sing's 1% rebate on tax payments (cap at $10,000 tax payments/month, i.e. max $100 rebate) http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=4049&p=10 . You might still make it for 2nd instalment payments if you haven't paid that yet.
(Don't ask either to do things that you can't do yourself tho. I am really looking for a Quintessentially-like service in HK that can do things like get scalped tix for sold out events like Qingming Riverside - something neither Amex nor Visa has offered to do).
Miles - are you after any type of miles other than Asia Miles?
If Asia Miles only, see http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/catha...hk-10.html#144
If you don't want to carry around a lot of cards, I suggest just waiting until February to see if Fubon Bank will extend their 2X on everything offer (current expiry date: 28 Feb 11 http://www.fubonbank.com.hk/web/html/cc_cbp00_e.html). If yes, that gives you $6/mile on retail and bill payment, $3/mile overseas (but be careful of merchant-initiated Dynamic Currency Conversion since it's a Visa - SCB AE is better for overseas)
Do you travel much to China? Not only is Visa acceptance there poor, but there are more DCC use in China than elsewhere. Get BoCHK Dual Currency CUP card for China use (RMB12/mile).
Priority Pass – your hubby has one cos he has PB VI. If you want to keep yours, you need either Plat Charge or CX Amex.
CX Amex is free for first year and annual fee waived waived if you have Plat Charge or Plat Credit thereafter. If you’re aggressive, you can cut the Plat Charge and Plat Cred and only have the CX Amex for one year, and apply for Plat Cred back when you need the CX Amex renewed.
Note that Plat Cred fees are $1,600 for first year and $800 thereafter ($1,600 charged and $800 rebated in supermarket coupons), but the first year welcome offer comes with 500,000 Membership Reward points which can be exchanged for 33,333 miles.
I'm not sure how you can get your parents Priority Passes by giving them supplementary cards (short of Amex Centurion supplementary). However Citibank Premiermiles supplementary already gets them into HK's.
Insurance – I won’t rely on the CX Amex or Plat Cred insurance, it only covers travelling (not mishaps overseas), plus you must pay for the tickets by CX Amex/Plat Cred in order to benefit from the coverage.
Your hubby’s PB VI insurance is marginally acceptable, cos it covers travelling and medical expenses incurred abroad (short of dying abroad whilst not travelling). The only downer again is that you must pay for your travel by PB VI in order to benefit from the coverage.
Amex Plat Charge is like having you, your Hubby and other supplementary cardholders’ stand-alone year-round insurance policy – you’re covered as soon as you leave HK until you get back, and Amex doesn’t care how you pay (higher limits if you do, but the non-Amex limit is already 1M for medical). If you travel a lot, this is a place where you get your $5,500 fee back.
P.S. if you're getting turned on by Shacom's 125 miles/$5,000 tax paid repaid (http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...ow.php?id=4489), you need to see Dah Sing's 1% rebate on tax payments (cap at $10,000 tax payments/month, i.e. max $100 rebate) http://www.hongkongcard.com/forum/fo...p?id=4049&p=10 . You might still make it for 2nd instalment payments if you haven't paid that yet.
Wow, I see the forum has been busy!
Thanks for your detailed replies, Percy and Kaka. Thought about what you guys said and am wondering about the following:
1. I heard AE generally charges a higher forex rate than Visa. Is that true?
2. Do online transactions (whether in HK or otherwise) billed in foreign currency (direct from website or via Paypal) count as overseas spending?
3. Percy, you mentioned that the Fubon card can be used for online spending. I have most of my bills on autopay so not familiar with this. Do you need a bank account with Fubon or do you put the monthly bills on the card, which in turn gives you a longer payment time?
4. The Shacomm Plat/Titanium sounds attractive, but I don't like the conversion fee. Seems pretty steep. Can't do the math, but I presume it would take a LOT of spending to justify the $500 cap?
5. Anyone knows whether monthly donations (currently on autopay) to charitable donations count as local retail spending? Is there any way to maximise AMs for donations or other stuff like doctor's visits?
6. Percy, I didn't know that AE Plat charge gives retention offers! I put most of my spending on that card and they didn't offer me a single point when I asked whether they could waive/reduce my annual fee!
I hate doing these things but hubby wanted me to try. 
From the looks of it so far, I guess I'd go with the following:
Keep SCB Visa Infinite for hubby's Priority Pass
Apply CX Amex for my PP and Plaza Premium Lounge access for my parents
Apply DBS Black AE for local shopping and dining
Apply Fubon Plat for overseas spending, local shopping and dining and online bill payments (if current promotion on bonus points is extended)
Keep Amex Plat credit for Maxim's dining and concierge
Keep Citibank Premiermiles for AAVS
With this option, I'd have to buy travel insurance for my family separately.
Alternatively, keeping in mind the objective to have fewer cards, I may just bite the bullet with the $5000, and
Keep AE Plat charge (if get retention offer) for concierge (sometimes they get pretty good rates on overseas car hire), travel insurance, PP and Plaza Premium Lounge access and Maxim's discounts (do go there quite a bit) - but AE Plat is completely lousy on AM accrual!
Keep SCB Visa Infinite for hubby's Priority Pass
Apply DBS Black AE for local shopping and dining
Apply Fubon Plat for overseas spending, local shopping and dining and online bill payments
Keep Citibank Premiermiles for AAVS
Still quite a thick wallet with all these cards, but does this sound ok or am I missing anything major?
Thanks,
Maya
Jan 13, 2011, 8:45 am
#555
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Unfortunately, there wasn't much I could do without the passcode (they were really nice to let me fiddle with the machine in the first place; I can think of a couple of restaurants where I would have been kicked out; the things you do when you're angry, I guess). The scenario that was running through my head was that they'd reverse the transaction in a couple of minutes (I had in my mind the average UnionPay transaction reversal as I thought this, not imagining here it would take about half an hour), then they'd activate the OPTOUT, and we'd do this again without the DCC. Nope.